Are faster bows wounding more deer?

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Re: Are faster bows wounding more deer?

Unread postby DEERSLAYER » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:49 pm

keb wrote:The more I got into traditional archery, the more I think the whole foc is not that big of a deal, how many animals have been taken with a cedar shaft and 125 head, allot, same for a aluminum shaft with a 125 grain muzzy or thunderhead allot.

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I agree. You have to be to an extreme to have a problem IMHO. Usually the heavier the head the more forgiving/accurate (group wise). Tips under 100 grains are the only ones I have seen any issues with. I suppose if you shoot long range it maybe more of an issue.


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Re: Are faster bows wounding more deer?

Unread postby Southern Man » Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:48 pm

I've always been a fan of heavier & slower setups. I'm not a speed guy. It always seemed to me the faster the arrow flies, the more finiky it becomes and for most archers, that means less accuracy. That could cause more wounded deer, but I don't know the numbers. I really don't see how you could put a finger on it.
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Re: Are faster bows wounding more deer?

Unread postby JoeRE » Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:50 pm

DEERSLAYER wrote:
keb wrote:The more I got into traditional archery, the more I think the whole foc is not that big of a deal, how many animals have been taken with a cedar shaft and 125 head, allot, same for a aluminum shaft with a 125 grain muzzy or thunderhead allot.

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I agree. You have to be to an extreme to have a problem IMHO. Usually the heavier the head the more forgiving/accurate (group wise). Tips under 100 grains are the only ones I have seen any issues with. I suppose if you shoot long range it maybe more of an issue.


Momentum is king - those heavy arrows you talk about might have been moving at only 160 fps but had plenty of momentum to punch a hole though a deer. FOC is what I would call a secondary characteristic, for an average bowhunter they probably don't need to tinker with it. You don't need high FOC to get good groups, or if you are just shooting through the ribs of a thin skinned animal like a deer. I would not term average FOC (8%-12%) as a problem, because it isn't, it will get it done most of the time - high FOC just can be a benefit.
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Re: Are faster bows wounding more deer?

Unread postby trdtnlbwhntr » Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:31 am

the best thing I have ever heard said about this debate, "would you rather get hit with a ping pong ball going 100mph or a golf ball going 80 mph?"
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Re: Are faster bows wounding more deer?

Unread postby Uncle Lou » Sun Jun 30, 2013 2:48 am

I think with bows laceration or slicing tissue kills. Energy, speed, momentum just don't mean a lot, accurately slicing the right organs kills them .

I once documented the death of about 12 +/- pigs on a trip with a group (15 yrs ago, not pigfest). Lots of different weapons were shot. Guns with big heavy bullets knocked them down, especially when an off shoulder was hit to soak a little more energy from the bullet. Straight pass through with bullets had most pigs run quite a while.

Back then, to me pass through is wasted energy (ie: I liked big heavy slow). Then I started documenting bow kills of the pigs, many heavy slow arrows just stuck in and the animals were running around and more arrows started hanging out. Then a couple fast bows just zipped these pigs clean and they started dumping. I was dumbfounded, it was opposite the bullets.
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Re: Are faster bows wounding more deer?

Unread postby G3s » Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:06 am

Uncle Lou wrote:I think with bows laceration or slicing tissue kills. Energy, speed, momentum just don't mean a lot, accurately slicing the right organs kills them .

I once documented the death of about 12 +/- pigs on a trip with a group (15 yrs ago, not pigfest). Lots of different weapons were shot. Guns with big heavy bullets knocked them down, especially when an off shoulder was hit to soak a little more energy from the bullet. Straight pass through with bullets had most pigs run quite a while.

Back then, to me pass through is wasted energy (ie: I liked big heavy slow). Then I started documenting bow kills of the pigs, many heavy slow arrows just stuck in and the animals were running around and more arrows started hanging out. [glow=red]Then a couple fast bows just zipped these pigs clean and they started dumping. I was dumbfounded, it was opposite the bullets[/glow].


My thoughts exactly Lou, fast or slow is not really the metric by which to measure. Obviously it takes a certain amount of K.E to create a pass through, but a razor sharp head on a well placed arrow is going to cleanly kill a deer very efficiently. Speed bows are certainly not wounding deer at a higher rate than the slower bows...that has nothing to say towards the person loosing the arrow however...plenty of people are hunting that have not done near enough practice.
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Re: Are faster bows wounding more deer?

Unread postby GRUD » Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:29 am

Something not mentioned yet is terminal velocity. If you jump out of a perfectly good airplane you will accelerate to approximately 209mph which is approximately 306.5 fps. As you fall at this speed the air resistance equals the gravitational pull thus you stop accelerating. So with speed bows you have much more air dynamics to deal with. From my experimentation, anyhing over about 270fps, fixed blade broadheads begin to plane. A slower arrow is much more stable because it has enough air resistance to make the feathers guide it but not so much as to steer the broadhead. Also, arrows do not come off a bow straight, they have flex. At high velocities, the air resistance can even affect their restabilization. And a slower arrow is most likely quieter flying through the air.

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Re: Are faster bows wounding more deer?

Unread postby magicman54494 » Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:47 am

If faster bows wound more deer then pencils misspell words and guns kill people. ;)
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Re: Are faster bows wounding more deer?

Unread postby UntouchableNess » Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:48 am

magicman54494 wrote:If faster bows wound more deer then pencils misspell words and guns kill people. ;)

Faster bows don't shoot themselves. ;)
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Re: Are faster bows wounding more deer?

Unread postby JoeRE » Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:53 am

G3s wrote:
Uncle Lou wrote:I think with bows laceration or slicing tissue kills. Energy, speed, momentum just don't mean a lot, accurately slicing the right organs kills them .

I once documented the death of about 12 +/- pigs on a trip with a group (15 yrs ago, not pigfest). Lots of different weapons were shot. Guns with big heavy bullets knocked them down, especially when an off shoulder was hit to soak a little more energy from the bullet. Straight pass through with bullets had most pigs run quite a while.

Back then, to me pass through is wasted energy (ie: I liked big heavy slow). Then I started documenting bow kills of the pigs, many heavy slow arrows just stuck in and the animals were running around and more arrows started hanging out. [glow=red]Then a couple fast bows just zipped these pigs clean and they started dumping. I was dumbfounded, it was opposite the bullets[/glow].


My thoughts exactly Lou, fast or slow is not really the metric by which to measure. Obviously it takes a certain amount of K.E to create a pass through, but a razor sharp head on a well placed arrow is going to cleanly kill a deer very efficiently. Speed bows are certainly not wounding deer at a higher rate than the slower bows...that has nothing to say towards the person loosing the arrow however...plenty of people are hunting that have not done near enough practice.


Actually guys, Lou what you describe is exactly why KE is a great measure of knock down power of a bullet (where most tissue damage is caused by the "shock" transferred from the bullet to whatever it hits). Arrows depend on the ability to continue to travel in a straight line against resistance from the tissue and bone it is slicing - the definition of linear momentum - to achieve complete penetration, unless your arrow has about 1,000 ft-lbs of KE with your arrow (that is how much is often recommended for deer size game from a bullet) the "knock down power" associated with KE isn't really important. A lighter fast arrow can have more momentum than a slower heavy arrow if it is a lot faster, but weight has an equal say in the matter. KE is more effected by speed.

The only reason I bring this up is that KE and momentum seems to be misunderstood by a lot of skilled archers, outdoor writers, not to mention normal bowhunters - and understanding which is a measure of arrow penetration potential and which is a measure of bullet "knock down power" will help everybody. I don't mean to come off as a smart-donkey, just want to try and shed some light on a sometimes cloudy issue!
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Re: Are faster bows wounding more deer?

Unread postby DEERSLAYER » Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:42 am

Uncle Lou wrote:I think with bows laceration or slicing tissue kills. Energy, speed, momentum just don't mean a lot, accurately slicing the right organs kills them .

I once documented the death of about 12 +/- pigs on a trip with a group (15 yrs ago, not pigfest). Lots of different weapons were shot. Guns with big heavy bullets knocked them down, especially when an off shoulder was hit to soak a little more energy from the bullet. Straight pass through with bullets had most pigs run quite a while.

Back then, to me pass through is wasted energy (ie: I liked big heavy slow). Then I started documenting bow kills of the pigs, many heavy slow arrows just stuck in and the animals were running around and more arrows started hanging out. Then a couple fast bows just zipped these pigs clean and they started dumping. I was dumbfounded, it was opposite the bullets.

I disagree with part of what your saying Lou. Energy dose mean a lot. You can't get to or through the right organs to make a quick clean kill without enough energy. Especially when your factor in an archery hunters number one enemy for penetration... Bone. I'm not saying that you need to have gobs of kinetic energy, but I think it's important to have plenty of it available at impact. Ideally, IMHO, to get a complete pass through and let the air out of their lungs.

On the other hand, I agree that outside of the increased forgiveness for range estimation speed by itself doesn't necessarily mean much. Where it dose mean something to me is when you do a speed comparison between bows with all else being equal. If you have two bows, one shooting 300 fps and one shooting 340 fps, both set up the same (same rest, arrow, etc) the 340 fps will have significantly more energy and penetration power.

magicman54494 wrote:If faster bows wound more deer then pencils misspell words and guns kill people. ;)

Point taken magic, but I think that was assumed and part of Darin's point was that because faster bows make it easier to shoot accurately at longer range people are trying to take advantage of that without realizing that just because you can do it on a target doesn't mean you should do it on a deer. Targets don't move, targets don't get your heart pounding, your mucles aren't stiff and cold from sitting still for long periods, etc. Plus, looking at some of the poor shots seen on TV that are passed off as good shots leads me to believe that some people are not understanding why they lose a deer when they put a "good shot" on him.

JoeRE wrote:Actually guys, Lou what you describe is exactly why KE is a great measure of knock down power of a bullet (where most tissue damage is caused by the "shock" transferred from the bullet to whatever it hits). Arrows depend on the ability to continue to travel in a straight line against resistance from the tissue and bone it is slicing - the definition of linear momentum - to achieve complete penetration, unless your arrow has about 1,000 ft-lbs of KE with your arrow (that is how much is often recommended for deer size game from a bullet) the "knock down power" associated with KE isn't really important. A lighter fast arrow can have more momentum than a slower heavy arrow if it is a lot faster, but weight has an equal say in the matter. KE is more effected by speed.

I think out of a bow kinetic energy is more affected by weight because a bow transfers energy to a heavy arrow more efficiently than a lighter one.

JoeRE wrote:...I don't mean to come off as a smart-donkey...

:lol: :lol: :lol: I don't think I have heard that before.

Just my four cents worth. :mrgreen:
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Re: Are faster bows wounding more deer?

Unread postby Dhurtubise » Sun Jun 30, 2013 3:40 pm

Sorry to pull out the engineer card here but KE will be greater affected by speed than by weight.

Ek = ½mv2

where m is mass, v is velocity and the 2 should show the velocity is squared.

So KE is a linear function wrt mass (weight) and parabolic function wrt velocity. What this means is that when a bow shoots a little bit faster the KE value jumps a lot more than if you increase the weight a little bit.

Momentum on the other hand will be more affected by weight than KE

P = mv , where P is momentum.

Because both mass and velocity affect momentum on equal grounds, weight is physically the easier factor to change. For example, it's much easier to change the arrow weight 20% from 400 to 480gr then increase speeds 20% from 300 to 360fps.

JoeRe explained the principle much better than I could a couple of posts back. Well done.

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Re: Are faster bows wounding more deer?

Unread postby DEERSLAYER » Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:35 pm

I think your making assumptions that all other things remain static. Your not taking into consideration how big of a drop in the arrow speed is affecting the numbers you are putting into that formula or the fact that bows transfer energy to a heavy arrow more efficiently than a lighter one. It's easy to change speed. Just buy a different bow.

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Re: Are faster bows wounding more deer?

Unread postby DEERSLAYER » Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:56 pm

Here is an example of what I mean. This is from a bow report in Bow Hunting World by Rick Combs. It's from a Strothers Wrath.
http://www.grandviewoutdoors.com/bowhun ... -wrath-sho

(30 Inches Draw)
Peak Hold (Pounds)*:...............................69.5
Weight, Full Draw (Pounds)*:....................16.5
Arrow Weight: ....................................................385 grains............500 grains
Arrow @ 70 Pounds*:...........................................314 fps................280 fps
Arrow @ 60 Pounds*:...........................................291 fps................260 fps
K.E. @ 70 Pounds*:..............................................84.31 ft. lbs.........87.06 ft lbs.
K.E. @ 60 Pounds*:..............................................72.41 ft lbs..........75.07.ft lbs.

Sound Level (dBA) @ 60 Pounds:...........................55.......................44
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Re: Are faster bows wounding more deer?

Unread postby goldtip5575 » Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:12 am

DEERSLAYER wrote:Here is an example of what I mean. This is from a bow report in Bow Hunting World by Rick Combs. It's from a Strothers Wrath.
http://www.grandviewoutdoors.com/bowhun ... -wrath-sho

(30 Inches Draw)
Peak Hold (Pounds)*:...............................69.5
Weight, Full Draw (Pounds)*:....................16.5
Arrow Weight: ....................................................385 grains............500 grains
Arrow @ 70 Pounds*:...........................................314 fps................280 fps
Arrow @ 60 Pounds*:...........................................291 fps................260 fps
K.E. @ 70 Pounds*:..............................................84.31 ft. lbs.........87.06 ft lbs.
K.E. @ 60 Pounds*:..............................................72.41 ft lbs..........75.07.ft lbs.

Sound Level (dBA) @ 60 Pounds:...........................55.......................44

[tab=30]I wonder how many fps you lose when you put in a draw length of 26-28 a more realistic example of most archers.Also is it really that much of a difference between 84.31 and 87.06 to lose speed.


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