sent control....

[BassBoysLLP]

On a side note, I suspect this technology has a shelf life, especially on public land. These accumulated failures are educating the deer herd that large concentrations of ozone are associated with danger. This will eventually render the product counter effective. I suspect this progression is long underway. I'm sure the woods stinks of ozone during Wisconsin s 9 day gun season on public land...

[ Post made via Android ]

[bowhunter15]

I think ozone has merit. There's no doubt that it kills odor molecules. But, there's also no guarantee that the ozone molecules coming from that unit diffuse and mix with a hunters entire scent stream, even if set up properly. I still use scent killer spray, partly because it makes me feel more confident, and partly because I have anecdotal evidence that it helps. The biggest thing that keeps me from using something like ozonics is the extra size and weight of the unit. Every time I hunt I already have to set up my stand and camera equipment. By that time I'm about ready to relax and hunt. And I couldn't justify the price. Scent spray is cheap.

Back to the discussion on how a deer smells, I never realized they have an organ which allows them to discern multiple scents simultaneously. Very interesting. I also still can't imagine why anything other than concentration would be responsible for making a scent seem "farther away". Diffusion is three dimensional, while convection is obviously wherever the air currents carry the molecules. By the time a concentrated odor reaches a distant object (like a deer's nose) via an air current, more of its molecules would have spread out radially from same path by diffusion, making them unable to enter the nose and be perceived as smell. Conversely, at close range the diffusion effect is less noticeable because it has had less time to work, and much of the scent is still concentrated in that air stream. Also, if the molecule has changed in some way by the time it was smelled, wouldn't it smell like something different, as the chemical structure of a small organic molecule is what gives it its unique smell? I'm by no means an expert in smell, but concentration>intensity of signal sent to brain>perceived distance seems to fit so nicely.

[ Post made via Android ]

[BCD]

Well stated bowhunter 15. I'm not saying it doesn't work @ all. I'm saying people still get winded when using it due to it not reacting with every scent molecule due to many factors.

[ Post made via iPhone ]

[BassBoysLLP]

I think ozone has merit. There's no doubt that it kills odor molecules. But, there's also no guarantee that the ozone molecules coming from that unit diffuse and mix with a hunters entire scent stream, even if set up properly. I still use scent killer spray, partly because it makes me feel more confident, and partly because I have anecdotal evidence that it helps. The biggest thing that keeps me from using something like ozonics is the extra size and weight of the unit. Every time I hunt I already have to set up my stand and camera equipment. By that time I'm about ready to relax and hunt. And I couldn't justify the price. Scent spray is cheap.

Back to the discussion on how a deer smells, I never realized they have an organ which allows them to discern multiple scents simultaneously. Very interesting. I also still can't imagine why anything other than concentration would be responsible for making a scent seem "farther away". Diffusion is three dimensional, while convection is obviously wherever the air currents carry the molecules. By the time a concentrated odor reaches a distant object (like a deer's nose) via an air current, more of its molecules would have spread out radially from same path by diffusion, making them unable to enter the nose and be perceived as smell. Conversely, at close range the diffusion effect is less noticeable because it has had less time to work, and much of the scent is still concentrated in that air stream. Also, if the molecule has changed in some way by the time it was smelled, wouldn't it smell like something different, as the chemical structure of a small organic molecule is what gives it its unique smell? I'm by no means an expert in smell, but concentration>intensity of signal sent to brain>perceived distance seems to fit so nicely.

[ Post made via Android ]

Well said. I'm a chemical engineer by t and its all about contact time and amount of scent/ozone when working with these systems. The flow (wind, thermals, obstructions) and set up lead to the failures in the system. If the contact time is insufficient, there will be incomplete oxidation (i.e. Scent molecule will not be rendered to a non-alarming form).

Its fun technology. Hats off to those that can get it to work to their advantage.

[ Post made via Android ]

[JakeJD]

... its all about contact time and amount of scent/ozone when working with these systems. The flow (wind, thermals, obstructions) and set up lead to the failures in the system. If the contact time is insufficient, there will be incomplete oxidation (i.e. Scent molecule will not be rendered to a non-alarming form).

This is my problem with the system. I just cannot imagine that the small amount of ozone "safely" generated by the unit completely eradicates your downstream scent. There are too many currents, eddys, obstructions, etc. for the unit to deal with. I just cannot fathom that the unit is very effective in an open air environment.

[JakeJD]

Well said. I'm a chemical engineer...

Do you have any insight into the deer ability to "smell" the distance to danger? I just cannot imagine that it only has to do with concentration because otherwise I think all the scent reduction stuff would be more effective. Thoughts?

[BassBoysLLP]

... its all about contact time and amount of scent/ozone when working with these systems. The flow (wind, thermals, obstructions) and set up lead to the failures in the system. If the contact time is insufficient, there will be incomplete oxidation (i.e. Scent molecule will not be rendered to a non-alarming form).

This is my problem with the system. I just cannot imagine that the small amount of ozone "safely" generated by the unit completely eradicates your downstream scent. There are too many currents, eddys, obstructions, etc. for the unit to deal with. I just cannot fathom that the unit is very effective in an open air environment.

It all depends on how you define "effective"...the system is prone to failure. No doubt in my mind. Its a tool, not a catch all.

[JoeRE]

As a couple others have noted scent breaks down (degrades) as well as spreads out (diffuses). Bird dogs easily recognize the difference between fresh and old scent and close scent and far away scent and I am sure deer do too. You need to think of your scent as four dimensional (X,Y,Z,Time) to understand its properties. I am trying to find a pretty awesome graphic spreadsheet that models air pollution emitted from a point source that I used for work once (and having a hard time finding it naturally). It would also mimic the scent stream from a hunter in a tree.

The average adult male breathes around 11 liters (2.9 gallons) of air per minute while just standing (with no buck fever!)**...that's 174 gallons per hour spread three-dimensionally whichever way air movement takes it. Yes, that is composed of many different types of molecules but for all practical purposes it is an homogenous mixture. I don't think there is a rational method for eliminating that volume of scent w/out a BIG plastic bag and an oxygen tank.

** http://www.arb.ca.gov/research/resnotes/notes/94-11.htm

That being said, every few years I get the urge to go all out with scent control - activated carbon, scent killers, scent eliminating soap, shampoo, deodorant, gum, clothes all washed in baking soda and only worn in the field, and I believe I have noticed a difference in deer reactions to my scent but only when its an all out approach. It took a LOT of work and I was fanatical about it. I still played the wind as always. The proportion of deer that snort and stomp went way down particularly at further distances - there seemed to be a lot more that just looked a little nervous but did not seem to alter their direction of travel. I frankly don't know if it was worth it though because it is a huge hassle (not to mention getting naked in parking lots is frowned upon lol) and quite a few deer still noticed something was up so the potential that they would alter their future movement every time one detected me remained. Did it allow me to harvest one single deer that I would not have otherwise? It is hard to say but I don't think so.

Archery what?

X2

[BassBoysLLP]

Well said. I'm a chemical engineer...

Do you have any insight into the deer ability to "smell" the distance to danger? I just cannot imagine that it only has to do with concentration because otherwise I think all the scent reduction stuff would be more effective. Thoughts?

I'm not a biologist, but I've seen a deer lock onto an apple buried in the leaves from a good distance away. It seems like they have no problem locking in on a smell. Whether they know how far to walk, I'll leave that one to the guys that do this stuff for a living.

I really don't think its strictly absolute concentration. More like the tolerable concentration or threshold. Specific threshold is going to be dependent on the specific deer and hunting pressure. Plus, it can depend on the type of smell (different chemicals have a different concentration when odor is perceivable). The oxidation of a scent molecule (even if incomplete) can yield a molecule that has a higher threshold when odor is perceived.

I often wonder whether the ozone temporarily desensitizes a whitetail's nose. It doesn't seem outside the realm of possibilities...

[JoeRE]

I often wonder whether the ozone temporarily desensitizes a whitetail's nose. It doesn't seem outside the realm of possibilities...

I have wondered the same thing. Not sure if it can have a sufficient concentration at a distance to do that though?

Edit: I found a couple articles that discuss ozone's ability to damage the olfactory bulb (what an animal uses to smell) at high enough concentrations. I do not see any research on temporary impairment at lower concentrations but I agree it is certainly possible.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10530505

http://journals2.scholarsportal.info/de ... srmifr.xml

[BassBoysLLP]

As a couple others have noted scent breaks down (degrades) as well as spreads out (diffuses). Bird dogs easily recognize the difference between fresh and old scent and close scent and far away scent and I am sure deer do too. You need to think of your scent as four dimensional (X,Y,Z,Time) to understand its properties. I am trying to find a pretty awesome graphic spreadsheet that models air pollution emitted from a point source that I used for work once (and having a hard time finding it naturally). It would also mimic the scent stream from a hunter in a tree.

The average adult male breathes around 11 liters (2.9 gallons) of air per minute while just standing (with no buck fever!)**...that's 174 gallons per hour spread three-dimensionally whichever way air movement takes it. Yes, that is composed of many different types of molecules but for all practical purposes it is an homogenous mixture. I don't think there is a rational method for eliminating that volume of scent w/out a BIG plastic bag and an oxygen tank.

** http://www.arb.ca.gov/research/resnotes/notes/94-11.htm

That being said, every few years I get the urge to go all out with scent control - activated carbon, scent killers, scent eliminating soap, shampoo, deodorant, gum, clothes all washed in baking soda and only worn in the field, and I believe I have noticed a difference in deer reactions to my scent but only when its an all out approach. It took a LOT of work and I was fanatical about it. I still played the wind as always. The proportion of deer that snort and stomp went way down particularly at further distances - there seemed to be a lot more that just looked a little nervous but did not seem to alter their direction of travel. I frankly don't know if it was worth it though because it is a huge hassle (not to mention getting naked in parking lots is frowned upon lol) and quite a few deer still noticed something was up so the potential that they would alter their future movement every time one detected me remained. Did it allow me to harvest one single deer that I would not have otherwise? It is hard to say but I don't think so.

Archery what?

X2

X3...these technology threads always seem to get a little geeky Maybe someday we'll figure out a way to cheat the wind...or just embrace it.

[Dhurtubise]

Here's another promo we did for Ozonic's a couple years back. If Ozonic's doesn't work, then I guess I must be a great salesman to convince my entire WKP team to lie on our behalf.... Right....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvd-JmtklMo

I don't want to completely discredit this video because it might be legitimate. However I have deer in my backyard every day that react like this to me. They react to me like this even when I'm in the bush to walking around, putting up stands for practice, scouting for fun, shed hunting. I have does and bucks, and though the bucks are initially more skittish, they learn too. Now, they know my smell because I feed them overwinter. They see me, you know me and are pretty much domesticated wild deer.

Deer are pretty easy to acclimatized to certain smells if you're around them enough. They are animals of routine and they get to know certain things and stop being scared of them. Most of those deer, stopped, smelled around, paused and smelled around again, and went on their way.... which is pretty much what happens when I'm fooling around (no scent control at all) with the deer that spend quite a bit time around my backyard.

I'm not saying you manipulated the video, just that it probably would be pretty easy to do in an isolated environment like a private farm. Especially if it's yours. It would also be easy to edit out any of the deer that wheeze. Sorry for my skepticism, but before I spend $400 on a gadget like this, im with the others. It would have it would have to come from somebody I know and trust, and probably shows me.

[ Post made via iPhone ]

[bowhunter15]

I really don't think its strictly absolute concentration. More like the tolerable concentration or threshold. Specific threshold is going to be dependent on the specific deer and hunting pressure. Plus, it can depend on the type of smell (different chemicals have a different concentration when odor is perceivable). The oxidation of a scent molecule (even if incomplete) can yield a molecule that has a higher threshold when odor is perceived. I often wonder whether the ozone temporarily desensitizes a whitetail's nose. It doesn't seem outside the realm of possibilities...

Ah, yes. Forgot to consider minimum thresholds. I do agree with you on that. My thought is that there is a physiological threshold (minimum concentration needed to fire a nerve impulse) as well as a behavioral threshold (minimum amount to make a deer care, which is influenced by pressure, specific deer, etc like you mention.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17325984

Exposures to particulate matter and gaseous air pollutants have been associated with respiratory tract inflammation, disruption of the nasal respiratory and olfactory barriers, systemic inflammation, production of mediators of inflammation capable of reaching the brain and systemic circulation of particulate matter.

I couldn't really find any information on low exposure levels of ozone and temporary olfactory impairment either. It seems like you either have chronic exposure risks, as from air pollution, or high dose studies like the ones posted. Those effects appear to be fairly strong. In a similar rat study, they dosed the rats acutely with ozone and then tested them after x amount of days and found that it took 15 days before the olfactory bulb cells began to regenerate after ozone destruction.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15804724

[JakeJD]

Here is a great thread where we discussed the "predator" scent that prey animals can detect. Pretty applicable to the whole scent control concept.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12373

[Mike]

I love the concepts being tossed around here, not the usual stuff. I will add my 0.02...it all comes down to what happens in the field. If whatever you do leads to less negative reactions from deer, keep doing it. That really is the ultimate goal in my mind. We may not understand the path/science behind why exactly it happens, but the fact that it happens is what matters.

That said I do like to theorize why something works or could work. In my experience ozone isn't that great at "destroying" odor. I don't believe ozonics works the way they claim it works...but that doesn't mean it does not work, just that something else is going on. It would be easy to test with a breeze, some strong odor(skunk, vanilla, diesel) and a human nose I assume.

So what else could be going on? Ozone is a respiratory irritant, so it may directly affect olfaction. Also, perhaps deer key in on only certain odors (predator odors) and the ozone is especially reactive with them and lowers the concentration enough to alter the deers reaction. Another option is that it affects their cns and has a calming affect, I have no reason to think this is so but who knows. Another possible theory is that it changes your scent profile in such a way that the deer doesn't recognize you as a predator. Its my understanding that animals are very specific in their sensing, and "full scent hunter" might be interpreted as a whole other animal than "hunter with ozone".

All I know is if it works for you keep doing it, and keep experimenting. It would be cool to gain a better understanding of what is going on. Its not about the ability to smell but how they react to what they do detect. Yes its a sensitive organ but they live by the nose and die by the nose. If they reacted to everything they would be stessed out all the time, they have to differentiate a TON of scent info and decide what is a threat and what is not. I believe there are a lot of factors that go into how they react, and it can be manipulated.