taking the front shoulder shot?

[Dewey]

Here is the exact reason there are so many varying opinions on whether an arrow can blow through a shoulder. In todays marketplace the selling point is speed. People are cutting the weights of their arrows so that they can shoot longer distances. The 100 gr head on an arrow that weights a total of 300 grains is not enough to blow through a shoulder. Now if you are shooting a 500 grain arrow with a solid cut on contact head up front you should have absolutely zero trouble with the shoulder.

My personal setup for my long bow is a Beman Ics Venture 300 shaft left to full length. Up front it has a 100gr brass insert and a 200 grain broadhead of solid construction. No welds, no moving parts, no screw on tips. Total arrow weight is between 550-600 grains. I have blown through shoulders and stuck arrows in the offside shoulder with that exact setup.
When I hunt with my compound I dont change much. I shorten the shaft to 29" and drop the brass insert. The same broadhead is used.

Kinetic energy wise im exceeding some one shooting faster than me with a 300 grain broadhead. If you are going to take these types of shots and fear that a shoulder blade may be in the way, you must understand what your arrow is capable of doing. A fast light weight arrow may sweet for shooting in the back yard but it has no place in the hunting realm of archery.

Right on!

[ Post made via iPhone ]

[dirt nap giver]

I am not a big fan of heart shots. Double lung every time. As far as leg back shot, I am confident in my shooting as well as my set up, I can thread the arrow through. Add some brush into the equation, and I may wait for the leg to come forward. Most of the pics I see on this thread are not "shoulder bone" hits. Center punch the scapula and your in trouble, no matter what your shooting or how heavy your arrow is. Sorry guys, show me some pics where the entry point is on the scapula as well as as pic of a shattered scapula and Ill buy it. Unless of course those shots are on immature deer, then the bones aren't as big or as dense as the ones on a mature deer.

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[Redman232]

Seems like when you see somebody on T.V. or a video take this shot they are obviously not try to hit the shoulder blade or leg bone/knuckle and they inevitably do. One of those " I couldn't have done that if I tried" things. I personally shoot 3 to 4 inches behind the front leg which gives me about 3 to 4 inches of leeway in any direction. I don't typically hunt over 15-18 feet in 90% of my setups. With this aiming point if the shot is true you always get a pass thru (rib cage on both sides) and can find your arrow. My 2 cents.

[JoeRE]

Here we can see that the shoulder blade (scapula) is actually very high.

It is very high at ground level but also will be more in the way of a double lung than people think if you are shooting down at the deer at a steep angle, if the deer is slightly quartering to and/or has its leg back.

Next time everyone shoots a deer, if you get the chance to touch it before it stiffens up, grab its shoulder and move it forward and back...you will find shoulders do move quite a bit forward and back because they are essentially free floating, probably 6" or so off the top of my head.


This is a great discussion btw...this is a fantastic site.

[browning3]

. I personally shoot 3 to 4 inches behind the front leg which gives me about 3 to 4 inches of leeway in any direction.

I disagree with that. You don't have that much leeway when you get that far behind the leg. 3-4 inches behind the leg and you are already near the back end of the lungs. Follow the front leg up and drop your arrow right there. Dead deer and short track(if any) everytime.

It took some time to convince the guys I hunt with to stop aiming for behind the leg(what they thought was considered shoulder) and start aiming above the leg. Way too many liver and gut shot deer. Not so much anymore. And never had an issue from the shoulder or scapula if they succefully executed their shot. (Not screw it up)

[Schultzy]

. I personally shoot 3 to 4 inches behind the front leg which gives me about 3 to 4 inches of leeway in any direction.

I disagree with that. You don't have that much leeway when you get that far behind the leg. 3-4 inches behind the leg and you are already near the back end of the lungs. Follow the front leg up and drop your arrow right there. Dead deer and short track(if any) everytime.

It took some time to convince the guys I hunt with to stop aiming for behind the leg(what they thought was considered shoulder) and start aiming above the leg. Way too many liver and gut shot deer. Not so much anymore. And never had an issue from the shoulder or scapula if they succefully executed their shot. (Not screw it up)

I'm 100% with Redman on this. Your room for error Is MUCH bigger aiming a little farther back. A person can't say that If you hit that knuckle or the thick part of the shoulder blade. Way too many shoulder/knuckle hits from bowhunters through out the years. A gut shot, liver shot, back 1/2 of the lungs shot will kill a deer every time If you shoot a tad too far back. Them lungs go farther back then whats getting getting said here also. I always aim a couple Inches In back of the crease. Double lung every time on a broadside shot If I hit my mark.

To each his/her own I guess.

[headgear]

I like to aim a touch back of the leg, maybe not 3-4 inches back but just behind for the same reasons as redmanand schultzy. If I hit a bit forward I should still be in the safe zone of the front shoulder and if the shot is a bit back there are still lungs there.

[muddy]

. I personally shoot 3 to 4 inches behind the front leg which gives me about 3 to 4 inches of leeway in any direction.

I disagree with that. You don't have that much leeway when you get that far behind the leg. 3-4 inches behind the leg and you are already near the back end of the lungs. Follow the front leg up and drop your arrow right there. Dead deer and short track(if any) everytime.

It took some time to convince the guys I hunt with to stop aiming for behind the leg(what they thought was considered shoulder) and start aiming above the leg. Way too many liver and gut shot deer. Not so much anymore. And never had an issue from the shoulder or scapula if they succefully executed their shot. (Not screw it up)

I will also echo these sentiments. That was my thinking for many years and though I'd get a lung, I'd also almost always get stomach in the shot. Deer would die, but it was horrible gutting them. Only in the past few years have I gotten back to where I have the confidence to hold up tight in the crease to get those double lungs.

[Redman232]

When lungs are inflated the diaphragm is "pushed back" to just in front of the last two ribs on a deer. If I were to make a slightly off shot and hit 4 inches back of my aiming point, I've got a liver and at least on lung hit deer with TWO holes in it "entry and exit". The deer may not die within sight but I've just doubled the wounds on the exterior of the animal equaling double the potential to find blood. I started this after previously aiming tight to the leg and hitting 2/3 of the way up the body on a buck. The first arrow went through the first shoulder blade and the upper front lobe of the lung. The arrow stopped in the off side shoulder blade. It was probably a fatal wound but I had a bad feeling about it, fortunately the shot was from the ground and I was able to catch up with him and place a follow up shot. This all happened within 100 yds of the first shot. After recovering the deer I back tracked to the original shot site and realized there was blood at impact but none there after. That experience changed my view on aiming point. I should point out at that time I was shooting a fast shooting compound and have since switch to a recurve which is why I think I prefer hitting softer bones and tissue now.

[browning3]

Interesting responses. To each their own. I can only offer advice based on personal experiences. My hunting journal shows that I've killed 41 deer with my bow since I was 15 yrs old. I'm 35 know. 2 deer went unrecovered. These were due to bad choices on my part. One straight down shot, and one quartering to shot. Both of which I have learned a lesson and will never attempt again.

I'm also very confident in my shooting ability. On the practice range I can consistently maintain softball size groups out to 60 yards. It's great practice but I will never loose an arrow at a deer over 35 yards. Personal limitation. And come to think of it I can't ever remember shooting a deer over 30 yards.

[trdtnlbwhntr]

here is yet another personal opinion as to why many people have a hard time penetrating that scapula. In todays broadhead isle it is hard to find a head that is longer than it is wide, of course leaving mechanicals out of the equation. (I think they are all junk and should be banned in all states)

In many cases people are shooting short squatty broadheads with the trocar tip that punches through stuff. It hits with an impact. The shoulder blade is a floating material almost. Not really attached firmly to anything on the side of the chest cavity. Rather just floating around in there. It can take impacts and instead of being rigged like a rib cage, it can give a little to absorb some shock. Todays heads have to push their way through that giving material. So a lot of the energy an arrow takes with it is lost in pushing that scapula to a point where it is pinned up against the chest cavity and then able to be penetrated.

Research has shown that a cut on contact broadhead that is 3 times longer than it is wide has the greatest penetrating power. Now with that being said a single bevel 2-blade broadhead with the same 3:1 ratio is the most ideal for penetration, but a 3 blade broadhead with the same 3:1 ratio will out penetrate (shots and placement being equal) every time. The reasoning is the broadhead pierces and glides through materials rather than being punched through material.

If anyone is interested do a google search of Dr. Ed Ashby's studies on broadheads and performance. I know with todays bow speeds and the amount of KE a modern bow can produce some of this may be null and void, but as bowhunters we owe it to our quarry and ourselves to make sure we are outfitting our gear to optimal conditions. So that when it comes to make that shot and something does go wrong we have confidence in our setups ability to overcome our minor mistakes.

[binney59]

here is yet another personal opinion as to why many people have a hard time penetrating that scapula. In todays broadhead isle it is hard to find a head that is longer than it is wide, of course leaving mechanicals out of the equation. (I think they are all junk and should be banned in all states)

In many cases people are shooting short squatty broadheads with the trocar tip that punches through stuff. It hits with an impact. The shoulder blade is a floating material almost. Not really attached firmly to anything on the side of the chest cavity. Rather just floating around in there. It can take impacts and instead of being rigged like a rib cage, it can give a little to absorb some shock. Todays heads have to push their way through that giving material. So a lot of the energy an arrow takes with it is lost in pushing that scapula to a point where it is pinned up against the chest cavity and then able to be penetrated.

Research has shown that a cut on contact broadhead that is 3 times longer than it is wide has the greatest penetrating power. Now with that being said a single bevel 2-blade broadhead with the same 3:1 ratio is the most ideal for penetration, but a 3 blade broadhead with the same 3:1 ratio will out penetrate (shots and placement being equal) every time. The reasoning is the broadhead pierces and glides through materials rather than being punched through material.

If anyone is interested do a google search of Dr. Ed Ashby's studies on broadheads and performance. I know with todays bow speeds and the amount of KE a modern bow can produce some of this may be null and void, but as bowhunters we owe it to our quarry and ourselves to make sure we are outfitting our gear to optimal conditions. So that when it comes to make that shot and something does go wrong we have confidence in our setups ability to overcome our minor mistakes.

Great post, makes a lot of sense.

[dreaming bucks]

here is yet another personal opinion as to why many people have a hard time penetrating that scapula. In todays broadhead isle it is hard to find a head that is longer than it is wide, of course leaving mechanicals out of the equation. (I think they are all junk and should be banned in all states)

In many cases people are shooting short squatty broadheads with the trocar tip that punches through stuff. It hits with an impact. The shoulder blade is a floating material almost. Not really attached firmly to anything on the side of the chest cavity. Rather just floating around in there. It can take impacts and instead of being rigged like a rib cage, it can give a little to absorb some shock. Todays heads have to push their way through that giving material. So a lot of the energy an arrow takes with it is lost in pushing that scapula to a point where it is pinned up against the chest cavity and then able to be penetrated.

Research has shown that a cut on contact broadhead that is 3 times longer than it is wide has the greatest penetrating power. Now with that being said a single bevel 2-blade broadhead with the same 3:1 ratio is the most ideal for penetration, but a 3 blade broadhead with the same 3:1 ratio will out penetrate (shots and placement being equal) every time. The reasoning is the broadhead pierces and glides through materials rather than being punched through material.

If anyone is interested do a google search of Dr. Ed Ashby's studies on broadheads and performance. I know with todays bow speeds and the amount of KE a modern bow can produce some of this may be null and void, but as bowhunters we owe it to our quarry and ourselves to make sure we are outfitting our gear to optimal conditions. So that when it comes to make that shot and something does go wrong we have confidence in our setups ability to overcome our minor mistakes.

So what do you use for broadhead, arrow, etc.....?

[ Post made via Android ]

[trdtnlbwhntr]

I shoot a woodsman elite at 200gr. I outlined my arrow setup in a previous post but the arrows are beman ics 300 shafts in my compound I use the factory inserts. In my longbow arrows I put 100gr brass inserts in them and use the same broadhead. I leave the arrow full length for the longbow and cut to stiffen the spine of the carbon shaft in my compound.

[JoeRE]

here is yet another personal opinion as to why many people have a hard time penetrating that scapula. In todays broadhead isle it is hard to find a head that is longer than it is wide, of course leaving mechanicals out of the equation. (I think they are all junk and should be banned in all states)

In many cases people are shooting short squatty broadheads with the trocar tip that punches through stuff. It hits with an impact. The shoulder blade is a floating material almost. Not really attached firmly to anything on the side of the chest cavity. Rather just floating around in there. It can take impacts and instead of being rigged like a rib cage, it can give a little to absorb some shock. Todays heads have to push their way through that giving material. So a lot of the energy an arrow takes with it is lost in pushing that scapula to a point where it is pinned up against the chest cavity and then able to be penetrated.

Research has shown that a cut on contact broadhead that is 3 times longer than it is wide has the greatest penetrating power. Now with that being said a single bevel 2-blade broadhead with the same 3:1 ratio is the most ideal for penetration, but a 3 blade broadhead with the same 3:1 ratio will out penetrate (shots and placement being equal) every time. The reasoning is the broadhead pierces and glides through materials rather than being punched through material.

If anyone is interested do a google search of Dr. Ed Ashby's studies on broadheads and performance. I know with todays bow speeds and the amount of KE a modern bow can produce some of this may be null and void, but as bowhunters we owe it to our quarry and ourselves to make sure we are outfitting our gear to optimal conditions. So that when it comes to make that shot and something does go wrong we have confidence in our setups ability to overcome our minor mistakes.

Great post...inherently how well a broadhead can penetrate is very simple. I have learned a lot from Dr. Ed Ashby's articles, they are fantastic.