Michigan SLP HC 4/4

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kenn1320
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Michigan SLP HC 4/4

Unread postby kenn1320 » Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:56 am

A change was proposed in southern lower peninsula of michigan. Its a small step in the right direction, hope they implement it!

Southern Lower Peninsula Deer Management Initiative group formed!
In December 2011 a group of concerned hunters and land owner/managers
formed, known as the Southern Lower Peninsula Deer Management Initiative
(SLP DMI), to address a couple lingering deer management issues that
have plagued Michigan’s SLP, namely our perpetual over goal deer herd as
well as the excessive harvest of bucks in the 1.5 year old age category.
We identified 3 options to consider. First, pursue Mandatory Antler Point
Restriction (MAPR) via the current MDNR process. Second, lobby the
legislature to initiate a statewide One Buck Rule (OBR). Or third, work
within the current legislatively mandated combination deer license structure.
After considerable debate, we settled on the third option.
The MDNR is mandated by the state legislature to offer a combination deer
license sec 43525A, part 401. In this legislation item (3) states:
If advisable in managing deer, an order under part 401 may designate
the kind of deer that may be taken and the geographic area in which any
license issued under this section is valid.
The SLP DMI has put forth a proposal, dubbed HC 4/4, requesting the
MDNR provide an enhanced restriction on the unrestricted portion of the
current combo license to include the same 4 point on one side requirement
as the restricted portion, currently in place. This is very similar to regulations
in place in both the Upper Peninsula and the Btb zone in the northern
lower. These regulations are known as Hunter’s Choice (aka: Lindquist
rule) and include a 3 point on one side restriction on the front end of the
combo. These regulations were adopted to accomplish different goals in
their respective regions based on need. For instance, the UP regulation was
adopted to build buck age structure while the main purpose of HC in the
Btb unit was to reduce overall deer numbers by allowing the taking of antlerless
deer with firearms. It’s the SLP DMI’s hope that both of these goals
will be realized with the adoption of HC 4/4 in the SLP.
In addition to the enhanced restriction on the combo, it is also proposed that
those opting for the single archery and /or firearm licenses be limited to just
(1) buck total, as is the rule with the existing HC regulations.
*Note. There is currently action being taken by UP Whitetails to consolidate
the single tag options into (1) any buck, any season license. This consolidation
will aid the MDNR law division with enforcement however; because
the 2 single licenses are also mandated, it will require action by the
state legislature.
The proposal was sent to the Natural Resource Commission (NRC),
MDNR, and the newly formed SLP Regional Deer Advisory Team (RDAT)
for consideration on its merits, on June 11th, 2012. A formal presentation
was made to the NRC on June 14th. At this point in the process, the proposal
is being considered by the RDAT.
SLP DMI has received letters of support from both QDMA national on behalf
of the State Chapter QDMA as well as Pheasants Forever. We continue
to solicit support from any, and all, concerned individuals and organizations.
The SLP DMI has chosen facebook as a means to communicate our message
to all interested parties. We can be found by searching Southern
Lower Peninsula Deer Management Initiative (SLP DMI) and simply
“like” us to receive updates and share your thoughts.
Tony Smith
c/o The SLP DMI


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mibowhunter
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Re: Michigan SLP HC 4/4

Unread postby mibowhunter » Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:35 pm

I'd love to see a change... having moved from WI I was shocked to see what a difference there was in hunter mentality and age structure. I saw more 3.5+yr old bucks in one day last year hunting in WI than I have in 4 years of living/hunting in MI. That includes driving backroads looking for deer. haha ;) I all too often hear guys say "I shot this little buck on opening day, now I'm going to wait for the big one". I just don't understand that, it seems illogical. How can you have big bucks if you shoot all of the little ones?

I've been following proposed changes for a while (hoping something passes!) and the biggest "complaint" I hear is that any kind of APR/OBR/MAR limits hunter opportunity. While this may be true to a certain extent, the following fall those spikes/forkies would probably sport antlers that would make them "legal". There would then be that many more "legal" bucks running around, so their opportunity should bounce right back up. The only thing is, it would now take some skill to kill those bucks because 1.5yr old bucks, in my opinion, are the easiest deer to kill.
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Re: Michigan SLP HC 4/4

Unread postby kenn1320 » Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:05 pm

mibowhunter wrote:I'd love to see a change... having moved from WI I was shocked to see what a difference there was in hunter mentality and age structure. I saw more 3.5+yr old bucks in one day last year hunting in WI than I have in 4 years of living/hunting in MI. That includes driving backroads looking for deer. haha ;) I all too often hear guys say "I shot this little buck on opening day, now I'm going to wait for the big one". I just don't understand that, it seems illogical. How can you have big bucks if you shoot all of the little ones?

I've been following proposed changes for a while (hoping something passes!) and the biggest "complaint" I hear is that any kind of APR/OBR/MAR limits hunter opportunity. While this may be true to a certain extent, the following fall those spikes/forkies would probably sport antlers that would make them "legal". There would then be that many more "legal" bucks running around, so their opportunity should bounce right back up. The only thing is, it would now take some skill to kill those bucks because 1.5yr old bucks, in my opinion, are the easiest deer to kill.


Wow mods feel free to verify mibowhunter and I are not the same person. :lol: Reading your post, almost feels eiry, since it sounds like the same things I have written over and over again. People dont get what your saying, yet I try to explain it all the time. I hear guys say they only saw 1 buck all year and they shot it. They cant fathom letting one buck go, cause thats the only one they might see all year. Well hello if the guy to your left didnt shoot that spike, and the guy to your right didnt shoot that 6, you just might see 2 bucks you normally wouldnt see without some restrictions. Next year as you said, if 80% off all passed bucks made it to 2.5, then you would have double the bucks to potentially see while hunting. The more bucks you see, the easier it is to pass them. I glassed a great area in MI, if there is such a place( :lol: ) and counted between 12 and 15 bucks in the same field. It was hard to count, as they fed/moved a lot in the beans. What was depressing was only 1 of those bucks had potential to meet my self imposed 100" min. That should tell you that if things remain the same, 14 of those 15 bucks will be killed this year and its likely the biggest one will be one of them. :cry: If we could just find a way to protect half of those bucks, wow what a difference it could make.
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Re: Michigan SLP HC 4/4

Unread postby Tadmdad » Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:31 pm

Sounds like a step in the right direction, atleast it's a start. When enough people stand together and speak facts it is inevitable that positive changes will come. What you guys are talking about isn't anything new, been talked about for along time. But a lot of hunters in MI talk one thing, but do another, but maybe in time that will change

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Re: Michigan SLP HC 4/4

Unread postby Ack » Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:44 pm

Hope it passes....we're long overdue for some changes!
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Re: Michigan SLP HC 4/4

Unread postby DEERSLAYER » Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:10 pm

If they can get it passed then that will be a big step in the right direction. I tried to get them to change what they are proposing to protect a far higher percentage of yearlings, but they said they didn't believe it would pass. Hopefully this passes and can be improved upon in the future.

There is also a 12 county AR proposal for the NLP. It would be awesome if they both passed.
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Re: Michigan SLP HC 4/4

Unread postby U.P. bownut » Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:51 pm

That would be a good change, it definitely hasn't hurt the buck where I'm at in the u.p.. But what about mandatory registration? I know people will still shoot deer and have them quartered before the back straps are cold but at least the majority will be checked and the dnr might finally have a clue as to how many deer are killed. Maybe even better info on bucks killed to doe's.
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Re: Michigan SLP HC 4/4

Unread postby Brad » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:51 am

I have never hunted Mi so i cant comment on how things are there, but I will say I hate any form of antler restrictions, for one reason. To me no one should be able to force another hunter into shooting "Their version" of a trophy. To some people a spike is a nice buck and they are proud of it and put it on the wall or on a plaque, and then some other guy might shoot a 150" buck and saw off the horns and throw them in a box in the garage loift. Which deer was the better trophy, it is pretty obvious to me that the smaller deer it. I get that after 1 or two years those deer that were passed will be bigger, but I still am against anything forcing everyone else's views on all hunters. Everyone pays the same for a license, the buck they decide to harvest should be their own choice. I would think limiting every one to 1 buck would do more than this would, because then if someone was on the fence of whether to shoot or not, they might not want to use their only tag and might pass there by doing the same thing as the APR. We are losing hunters at a rapid pace, and I think anything regarding the "trophy" status of a deer is a topic that is a very personal choice that should be left up to the hunter.
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Re: Michigan SLP HC 4/4

Unread postby kenn1320 » Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:26 am

Actually Brad, OBR or one buck rule was on the table, but it was deemed to limit hunter opportunity. Reading between the lines, revenue loss for the state and small towns in the form of lodging/food/etc. That is why this option was chosen and put forth. If you want that trophy “any buck” you can opt to buy the 1 buck tag for the year. If you are willing to hold out for something bigger and want the option to maybe shoot one opening day and still hunt, then you opt for the combo license which is 2 tags but both restricted to 4pnts on one side min. The reason this will not do much good, is roughly 80% of successful hunters only take one buck as it is. So whether they shoot that 1.5yr old under the current system to “get their buck” and then hunt for the big one that isn’t out there, or they buy the 1 buck tag and shoot anything, at the end of the day we still lost the same amount of bucks. Like you said, the hope is maybe the guy will ask himself; do I really want to shoot this buck and end my season? If he elects to pass that buck thinking there’s a chance of getting in more hunting then we will have a shot at seeing some change. I find it strange people will complain about antler restrictions, but fish a lake with min length or slot limits and think nothing of it. In states that have a diverse age structure you don’t need regulations to keep things in check. It seems natural to have a herd that has a diverse age structure, but no study has been done to prove it. I also understand your point of view that people should have the option to shoot what they want, but if what many of us want is a 2.5yr old deer and they aren’t present in the herd cause we over harvest our bucks, how is that fair to us? It would be like a neighborhood apple tree and you like your apples red and picked after the first frost. Every year you show up to the tree only to find it bare. You talk to the neighbors and they all say “I got my apple”. You ask them wouldn’t you rather have them when they are red and tasty? They say we would love a red apple like you, but if we don’t pick it when it’s green, then we might not get an apple at all. If we have some regulations to make everybody wait till the apples are red, then not everybody will get an apple, but there will be equal chances for all to pick the one they want.
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Re: Michigan SLP HC 4/4

Unread postby jlh42581 » Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:38 am

Careful what you wish for, AR has been in my state for 10 years now and I can tell you without a doubt in my area of the state if it did anything all it did was high grade the superior genetic bucks. I have an article at home Ill see if I can find it where QDMA even came out and said that it creates high grading and removes bucks with the best potential by forcing guys who shot spikes and were happy to now hunt harder and kill genetically better bucks.

Think of it like this

Two bucks, two different fathers you have an 8pt restriction

Buck #1 - at 1.5 is a 10" spike
Buck #2 - at 1.5 is a 40" 8pt

Which buck if one has to die do you want to die if you are after a true trophy?

Kind of a tricky question because at 4.5 they could be identical in size. But, is buck #2 going to be a better 2.5 year old deer? My guess is yes. Game farms arent buying up 2.5 year old spike bucks. Theyre buying 2.5 year old 10pts or larger.
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Re: Michigan SLP HC 4/4

Unread postby kenn1320 » Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:04 am

I have read those articles and while there is some truth to that, it’s already working very well in other parts of Michigan and PA went from a nobody state to top 10 for trophy entries. Also QDMA is backing this proposal for our state, so I think the pluses outweigh the negatives.
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Re: Michigan SLP HC 4/4

Unread postby U.P. bownut » Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:42 am

I agree that a trophy is in the eye of the beholder but how many people do you here actually say "Boy I cant wait till the opener and get my spike"? Not a lot I'm guessing. What you will here in places like northern lower MI (where I'm from) is "Well I had to shoot him, if I don't the guy next door will."
I guess the moral question here is: Who is right when your Right to do something impinges my success in the same field?
Nobody owns the deer but why not try to better the herd?
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Re: Michigan SLP HC 4/4

Unread postby mibowhunter » Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:40 am

Hey kenn1320, maybe we are long lost brothers... haha your thoughts are also exactly what goes through my mind.

U.P. bownut wrote:I agree that a trophy is in the eye of the beholder but how many people do you here actually say "Boy I cant wait till the opener and get my spike"? Not a lot I'm guessing. What you will here in places like northern lower MI (where I'm from) is "Well I had to shoot him, if I don't the guy next door will."

I've heard that "well if i don't shoot him the neighbor will" line so many times. I find it tough to hear because most of the guys weren't thrilled with the harvest, but instead felt they had to shoot it to fill their tag. That bugs me. I honestly don't mind guys shooting little bucks if they are thrilled with it - that is what hunting is all about! It just gets frustrating when people feel they have to shoot a deer to fill their tag becuase if they didn't, someone else will.

jlh, the way the current regs are laid out, both of those bucks would probably get shot by the same person! :)
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Re: Michigan SLP HC 4/4

Unread postby Singing Bridge » Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:56 am

mibowhunter wrote:I'd love to see a change... having moved from WI I was shocked to see what a difference there was in hunter mentality and age structure. I saw more 3.5+yr old bucks in one day last year hunting in WI than I have in 4 years of living/hunting in MI. .



It really is a "reality check" in many areas of Michigan. I had a friend who once told me, "I believe everyone should experience military boot camp once in their lives...", as it was really a life changing experience in his eyes. I believe everyone should experience deer hunting on public land in MidMichigan for a few weeks, as the understanding of one end of the hunting pressure speculum would deepen anyone's overall understanding of hunting today. If successful, as I'm sure many of you have the potential to be here, the satisfaction would be off the charts. My recommendation would be bow season, as during gun season you will be watched by a scope or three, there really is no avoiding it if you move about on publlic land. We had a fatality, a hunter shooting another hunter, just down the road the season before last.

I really like the potential for some of these proposals being discussed here, it wouldn't take much to create an improvement.
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Re: Michigan SLP HC 4/4

Unread postby DEERSLAYER » Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:54 am

OK, I have to admit, after Brads post I quit reading this thread. Brad, I apologize for being blunt but I have seen this line of thinking so many times before and it really is a simple case of not understanding the role AR's have in managing a herd and that properly implemented AR's can work better than a one buck limit. It's the assumption that it's all about antlers and that because many, maybe even most, want AR's for that reason it should not be considered as a management tool.

Also, by that logic, why should anyone be forced to pass on does or button bucks because you think they should shoot a buck? Why should people have to follow any AR's (like the minimum 3" AR's we have now)? There are an awful lot of people that think a doe is quite a trophy. Many of them are quite happy to take a button buck also.

If what you say "anything regarding the "trophy" status of a deer is a topic that is a very personal choice that should be left up to the hunter." is what we should live by then I have to ask why should we let current game management policies get in the way of that?

When we as hunters think that the only reason the deer herd is there is to be managed solely for us then I think we are venturing into dangerous territory.
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