Michigan SLP HC 4/4

[Brad]

AR restrictions are absolutely about growing larger racks, if they aren't why would people want them. The entire idea is to give a buck another year (at least) to grow larger antlers, I do not see one benefit besides that. Everyone is entitles to their opinion on what is or isn't a trophy, and land owners can set their own rules, but the way I see it is if you have a buck tag, it should be up to you and you only what you deem worthy of using it on. If its a 170 inch 10 pointer great, if its a 3 inch spike great, as long as you are happy that's all that matters. I think that hunting is entirely focuses to much on the antlers and nothing else. Antlers sell products, well big one's do anyway. The hunting industry as a whole is all about the big buck mentality and growing the next big buck be it through food plots, minerals, locking up (leasing) land so you have control over it etc. That is great but also has conseqeunces, land is no longer accessible to the average person most of the time, and the single biggest reason we are losing hunters is lack of land to hunt. Hunting should not be about antlers, it should be about fun, if you have fun and kill a deer great, if you only shoot large bucks but you have fun in the process, great, if you want to shoot the first deer you see, great, as long as you are happy. I have killed some nice bucks, some small ones and even a spike, and I don't regret a single one of them. The DNR's need to focus more on the amount of tags they give out, one a tag is given (antlerless or antlered) it should be up to the hunter to decide what type of deer It goes on. The problem is they generally issue too many tags and that is where there falling short.

OK, I have to admit, after Brads post I quit reading this thread. Brad, I apologize for being blunt but I have seen this line of thinking so many times before and it really is a simple case of not understanding the role AR's have in managing a herd and that properly implemented AR's can work better than a one buck limit. It's the assumption that it's all about antlers and that because many, maybe even most, want AR's for that reason it should not be considered as a management tool.

Also, by that logic, why should anyone be forced to pass on does or button bucks because you think they should shoot a buck? Why should people have to follow any AR's (like the minimum 3" AR's we have now)? There are an awful lot of people that think a doe is quite a trophy. Many of them are quite happy to take a button buck also.

If what you say "anything regarding the "trophy" status of a deer is a topic that is a very personal choice that should be left up to the hunter." is what we should live by then I have to ask why should we let current game management policies get in the way of that?

When we as hunters think that the only reason the deer herd is there is to be managed solely for us then I think we are venturing into dangerous territory.

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[fredhill]

i tend to agree with Brad. if some poor guy can only get away 1 or 2 weekends a year because of work/family/ whatever, i have a hard time with the state telling him he can't shoot a spike or 4 pointer. i plan my life around hunting season including the state i live in and where i work. i can take as much vacation as i want, when i want. i have no interest in shooting button bucks, or small bucks. others are more casual about hunting. members of this forum are way more serious about hunting.

[Brad]

I am not trying to say I am all for shooting small bucks only, I re read my post and it sounds like I am only for shooting young deer and that certainly is not the case. I enjoy big bucks as much as anyone else and have some nice ones on the wall too, but my point is I hate to see laws that force anyone to shoot a certain type of deer just because it isn't a trophy. Hunting is an individual sport, much like golf, where you get out of it what you put into it. The people that constantly push themselves will always get better because they work at it, but at the same time I am all for the guys that hunt twice a year or whatever to be able to harvest what they like. I have hunted spots where you don't see any bucks at all, and that was because of the neighbors doing huge drives that killed any legal buck. I would hate to find myself in a situation where the only buck I would see every 3 or 4 years wasn't legal to be shot. I have a small non typical mounted on the wall with a drop beam and he is only a 3 pointer, he would be illegal under this law even though he is one of my most prized bucks, and he is only a 1.5 year old. Anyone that wants to tell me he isn't a true trophy can go right ahead, but it will fall on deaf ears. Hunters are only hurting themselves with the constant fighting over traditional vs compound, compound vs cross bow, what is a trophy buck etc. People need to do what makes them happy and let everyone else do their own thing. If a hunter goes out and has fun with a gun or bow in their hand, that should be the ultimate goal. There are not enough hunters left to keep fighting on the inside, before long there wont be any hunting the way we are going about it.

i tend to agree with Brad. if some poor guy can only get away 1 or 2 weekends a year because of work/family/ whatever, i have a hard time with the state telling him he can't shoot a spike or 4 pointer. i plan my life around hunting season including the state i live in and where i work. i can take as much vacation as i want, when i want. i have no interest in shooting button bucks, or small bucks. others are more casual about hunting. members of this forum are way more serious about hunting.

[DEERSLAYER]

Brad, it really does sadden me that yourself and others that are so strongly opposed to a change in AR's will not put in the time to sufficiently learn if there are positive scientific biological reasons for AR's (which there are). There are many benefits to AR's in a state like Michigan such as higher birth rates, less predation on fawns and a more productive deer herd just to name a few. In the end you have bigger healthier deer (doe's fawns and bucks) and more opportunity for everyone. Including people that are happy with any deer and this would take care of the real reason so many people are dropping out of hunting in places like Michigan........ a poor quality hunting experience. Lack of land is not our problem. We have millions of acres of public land, it's a lack of quality land that is the problem. Both surveys and personal experience has proven that what people are seeing is more important than if they get a deer when it comes to whether they drop out or keep coming back.

We have three basic choices here in Michigan. We can leave things the way they are and continue to watch things go down hill. We go to a draw system to see if you even get to hunt that year. Or we can have AR's and watch hunter satisfaction and partition climb rapidly as it has been shown to in other places where AR's have been properly implemented. Hunters start coming back into the fold and new hunter participation increases. When you have a healthier more productive herd it's good for us.

You may think I'm forgetting going to a one buck tag. I'm not. We have been there done that. It doesn't work. We have to many hunters. We used to have good numbers deer which made our regulations work, but eventually the habitat was damaged from over population and we no longer have this situation on our public land. Plus these days there isn't support higher deer numbers.

If you doubt the benefits I stated are true by all means please find a biologist that disagrees and let me know who it is. I will gladly call him (or her) and discuss it, but don't count on finding one that disagrees with me. Not because I'm so smart (I only pretend I am sometimes ), but because no biologist worth his weight in salt would argue otherwise. There are few things that I can guarantee in life, but if you can find a biologist that disagrees with me that these benifits would come from AR's in Michigan I can guarantee that is an argument I will win.

[Ack]

The thing you have to remember about Michigan is the sheer number of hunters we have. Guys from just about any other state in the country do not, and probably will not ever witness hunting pressure like we have here in Michigan. With that kind of pressure, we need to take steps to let some of the bucks reach their second or third year. The "young buck" hunters already have what they are happy with....young bucks, and lots of them. Why not give the "older buck" hunters a better opportunity at what it is they are looking for?

[jlh42581]

You guys are in luck. I found the QDMA article on antler restrictions. I will scan it as soon as I get to work.

[jlh42581]

I have read those articles and while there is some truth to that, it’s already working very well in other parts of Michigan and PA went from a nobody state to top 10 for trophy entries. Also QDMA is backing this proposal for our state, so I think the pluses outweigh the negatives.

Sorry but currently michigan sits at 17 and pa sits at 20

B&C Trophy Whitetail Production, 2005-2010
(Typical and non-typical trophies combined)
1. Wisconsin, 383 entries (1980-1985 rank 3rd, 40 entries) ... FIVE YEARS or 76 B&C bucks a year with no AR
2. Illinois, 299 entries (1980-1985 rank 6th, 30 entries)
3. Iowa, 224 entries (1980-1985 rank 2nd, 59 entries)
4. Ohio, 215 entries (1980-1985 rank 14th, 16 entries)
5. Missouri, 214 entries (1980-1985 rank 9th (tie), 25 entries)
6. Kentucky, 199 entries (1980-1985 rank 9th (tie), 25 entries)
7. Indiana, 195 entries (1980-1985 rank 16th, 14 entries)
8. Kansas, 181 entries (1980-1985 rank 4th, 35 entries)
9. Minnesota, 172 entries (1980-1985 rank 1st, 76 entries)
10. Saskatchewan, 147 entries (1980-1985 rank 7th (tie), 27 entries)
11. Texas, 132 entries (1980-1985 rank 12th, 19 entries)
12. Alberta, 115 entries (1980-1985 rank 7th (tie), 27 entries)
13. Nebraska, 78 entries (1980-1985 rank 18th (tie), 12 entries)
14. Oklahoma, 48 entries (1980-1985 rank 22nd (tie), 7 entries)
15. Ontario, 41 entries (1980-1985 rank 42nd (tie), 1 entry)
16. Arkansas, 40 entries (1980-1985 rank 34th (tie), 3 entries)
17 (tie). Michigan, 39 entries (1980-1985 rank 17th, 13 entries)
17 (tie). Mississippi, 39 entries (1980-1985 rank 18th, 12 entries)
19. North Dakota, 31 entries (1980-1985 rank 31st (tie), 4 entries)
20. Pennsylvania, 26 entries (1980-1985 rank 45th (tie), 0 entries)
21. New York, 25 entries (1980-1985 rank 28th (tie), 5 entries)
22. South Dakota, 24 entries (1980-1985 rank 20th (tie), 8 entries)
23 (tie). Georgia, 23 entries (1980-1985 rank 5th, 31 entries)
23 (tie). Maryland, 23 entries (1980-1985 rank 28th (tie), 5 entries)
25 (tie). British Columbia, 19 entries (1980-1985 rank 24th (tie), 6 entries)
25 (tie). Maine, 19 entries (1980-1985 rank 11th, 20 entries)
27. Virginia, 17 entries (1980-1985 rank 22nd (tie), 7 entries)
28. Tennessee, 15 entries (1980-1985 rank 20th, 8 entries)
29. Colorado, 13 entries (1980-1985 rank 42nd (tie), 1 entry)
30. Idaho, 11 entries (1980-1985 rank 24th (tie), 6 entries)
31 (tie). Massachusetts, 8 entries (1980-1985 rank 45th (tie), 0 entries)
31 (tie). Quebec, 8 entries (1980-1985 rank 45th (tie), 0 entries)
33. Delaware, 7 entries (1980-1985 rank 42nd (tie), 1 entry)
34 (tie). Louisiana, 6 entries (1980-1985 rank 28th (tie), 5 entries)
34 (tie). Manitoba, 6 entries (1980-1985 rank 15th, 15 entries)
34 (tie). Washington, 6 entries (1980-1985 rank 31st (tie), 4 entries)
37 (tie). Montana, 5 entries (1980-1985 rank 13th, 17 entries)
37 (tie). Alabama, 5 entries (1980-1985 rank 34th (tie), 3 entries)
37 (tie). North Carolina, 5 entries (1980-1985 34th (tie), 3 entries)
40 (tie). Connecticut, 4 entries (1980-1985 rank 38th (tie), 2 entries)
40 (tie). New Hampshire, 4 entries (1980-1985 rank 38th (tie), 2 entries)
42 (tie). New Jersey, 3 entries (1980-1985 rank 45th (tie), 0 entries)
42 (tie). New Brunswick, 3 entries (1980-1985 rank 24th (tie), 6 entries)
42 (tie). West Virginia, 3 entries (1980-1985 rank 34th (tie), 3 entries)
45 (tie). Mexico, 2 entries (1980-1985 rank 24th (tie), 6 entries)
45 (tie). Wyoming, 2 entries (1980-1985 rank 38th (tie), 2 entries)
45 (tie). South Carolina, 2 entries (1980-1985 rank 45th (tie), 0 entries)
45 (tie). Nova Scotia, 2 entries (1980-1985 rank 31st (tie), 4 entries)
49 (tie). Oregon, 1 entry (1980-1985 rank 38th (tie), 2 entries)
49 (tie). Rhode Island, 1 entry (1980-1985 rank 45th (tie), 0 entries)

Read more: http://www.northamericanwhitetail.com/2 ... z20PGBdn3F



You are 14 times more likely to shoot a B&C buck in Wisc vs PA but you also must take into account hunter density which this figure does not.

[jlh42581]

Disclaimer: The following image was generated from the article titled QDM - Mythology originally printed in Quality Whitetails Magazine August 2005 Issue, written by Brian Murphy, R. Larry Marchinton and Karl V. Miller.

Once you click the image it will open another window. Within that window you will see a magnifying glass in the top left, click that again and it will become full size.

[Bigb]

I'm not an expert on Michigan deer hunting but I've gun hunting in the Northern LP for 15 or so years, usaully only for 3 or so days opening week. I hunt private land and even being in my 30's and guest to the land I hunt I usually get the last blind to hunt. For me though, it doesn't matter, I'm just out to get out of Chicago for a while.

In my 15 or so years (roughly 45 days in the woods) I have seen two bucks that are 5 points or above. The worst part of it is that I saw both in the same day. The five point I saw opening morning and after 10 years of never seeing a buck bigger than a 3 point I took the 5 point. I still can't believe that 6 hours later a nice basket rack 8 point came out that I had to pass.

I guess my point is that I hunt in Michigan and come to expect that I go to sit in the woods, enjoy nature and hopefully fill my doe tag. I really don't expect to see many antlers but I think the rule change would be great. I just wish people would realize that after a few years of passing spikes and forks, there would be a better deer herd and people would start to shoot more 6, 8 and 10 points and never go back to shooting spikes simce they know there are a lot more bigger deer in the woods.

[U.P. bownut]

I have a small non typical mounted on the wall with a drop beam and he is only a 3 pointer, he would be illegal under this law even though he is one of my most prized bucks, and he is only a 1.5 year old.

That's great and he is a trophy to you and he would be to me to but, why isn't he in your avatar or your signature box? Maybe to cluttered up with bigger bucks (which are also no doubt trophy's to).

It's good to PA is steadily moving up in the rankings and surprise surprise MI is treading water. Both states have more entries but surly that has nothing to do with the implementation of AR's.