Observations RE: Hill COuntry DVD

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RaisedByWolves
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Re: Observations RE: Hill COuntry DVD

Unread postby RaisedByWolves » Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:08 pm

You don't have to find all of his beds, it would be nice if you could and we should make every effort to, but in most cases you would need permission on multiple tracts. I like just figuring out as many as I can and try to hunt them with the best odds.


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Re: Observations RE: Hill COuntry DVD

Unread postby ozzz » Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:10 pm

RaisedByWolves wrote:You don't have to find all of his beds, it would be nice if you could and we should make every effort to, but in most cases you would need permission on multiple tracts. I like just figuring out as many as I can and try to hunt them with the best odds.



I think this is key.
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Re: Observations RE: Hill COuntry DVD

Unread postby JV NC » Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:13 pm

and isnt that the whole thing. Getting in each specific spot and figuring out when and why that spot so you can hunt those spot when those conditions present themselves.


If you wanna kill him it is! :)

You don't have to find all of his beds, it would be nice if you could and we should make every effort to, but in most cases you would need permission on multiple tracts.


Whooooaaaa! You mean...you think his bedding area might be that big?

Me too (could be). Good point.
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Re: Observations RE: Hill COuntry DVD

Unread postby RaisedByWolves » Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:31 pm

JV, I think a big ole mature buck can have a pretty big home range( hundreds of acres) and you should want to find what beds you can on that given range. Maybe he has 10 preferred beds, maybe 4, or 2. Where I hunt, I can usually find the precise bed or staging area and use one to find the other. I wouldn't say a big bucks bedding area consists of multiple tracts, I would say his bedding area(s) could all be found within x-hundred acres. My definition of a big buck bedding area is very small, 60' x 60' or smaller in most cases. His staging area can be anywhere from 20 yards from his bed, to over 100.
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Re: Observations RE: Hill COuntry DVD

Unread postby Hunter74 » Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:40 pm

I think it might be easier to look at it like this... A buck has his home range that will consist of let's say 800 acres that he spends his life on... Now we'll say that that 800 acres is split between 4 properties... Now on each property the buck is going to have his bedding area(s) and by that I mean a 3' by 5' spot, and each of these spots is picked because it gives him an advantage to use wind sound cover and to be able to watch what's goin on, now there's not many spots like that on any given property (that's less than a few hundred acres)... So now when you know the buck is on your 200acre property through seeing him or his tracks you should be able to narrow down to 1 or 2 beds he will be in based on wind because (typically) there isn't going to be more possibilities than that that gives the buck all those advantages on 1 property

Basically a fair amount of bucks will have a pretty large area he lives on (800acres) throughout the year and the more precise area or farm (200acres) he uses at a given time will change during the year from season to season or maybe even the buck just likes to run a sort of "circuit" and spend a few days on this farm then a week on that farm etc giving the buck several preferred beds all together but there is just a couple beds while he is spending his time on a specific (200acre) farm...

These are just hypothetical numbers and sizes of an area, his home range could be bigger or smaller and it could be split amongst more or fewer properties of all different sizes but the generalities of a buck doing this remains the same... You don't have to know every bed he has you just need to know the couple he has on your property and when he is on your property...

Note... Marshes excluded from this explanation

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Re: Observations RE: Hill COuntry DVD

Unread postby JV NC » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:34 am

Hunter....this is all just a discussion, and not even close to a disagreement.

Around here, what I seem to find is similar to what you wrote, except that the older a buck gets, the smaller his home range and his core become. So, let's say his home range is 400ac's and his core is 40! If you don't have access to the right 40ac's, you're SOL for hunting this buck, outside the rut.

This could absolutely be attributable to many factors (proximity to suburbia; herd dynamics; etc..., etc..., etc...). I don't know.

This is an interesting discussion. It's come a long ways.
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Re: Observations RE: Hill COuntry DVD

Unread postby jlh42581 » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:22 am

I think personally its harder for me to grasp how I can ever begin to approach the buck in the given situation where I hunt. Around home here, again deer density is extremely low. One of the other major problems is the lack of an understory. 100 years ago, they came through and clearcut everything. Now were left with a single stage forest where its all giant timber. Most of these mounts are extremely steep in this part of the state. There are no roads on top, there are no food sources outside of natural browse up top its up one side, drop down over the other. Not many "fingers" coming off these mountains. So you find that one point thats on the lewards side, well to get to that, you have no visual barrier and you are talking about covering a near vertical face on one side to avoid bumping him coming in.

The deer here have an insane amount of pressure, theres virtually no stone unturned at some point in the season. When they stay on the public land they head to where its thick. It might not matter where the wind is, they get in there because you simply cannot get in there without blowing it out.

You gotta take facets of both videos, combined with your local area and just give it a shot. Here, the pressure more than anything dictates where you will find deer. The hill country video takes in a lot places that are wide open on top giving that deer a reason to go to the top. Here they might be feeding in the bottom fields so youve got the task of getting on that travel route with a falling thermal.

I guess what I am getting at is the puzzle is different everywhere. Nothing I see in either of the videos is terrain I can relate to here.
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Re: Observations RE: Hill COuntry DVD

Unread postby GRFox » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:46 am

This is a great post and perfectly articulates my opinion on the bedding.

Hunter74 wrote:I think it might be easier to look at it like this... A buck has his home range that will consist of let's say 800 acres that he spends his life on... Now we'll say that that 800 acres is split between 4 properties... Now on each property the buck is going to have his bedding area(s) and by that I mean a 3' by 5' spot, and each of these spots is picked because it gives him an advantage to use wind sound cover and to be able to watch what's goin on, now there's not many spots like that on any given property (that's less than a few hundred acres)... So now when you know the buck is on your 200acre property through seeing him or his tracks you should be able to narrow down to 1 or 2 beds he will be in based on wind because (typically) there isn't going to be more possibilities than that that gives the buck all those advantages on 1 property

Basically a fair amount of bucks will have a pretty large area he lives on (800acres) throughout the year and the more precise area or farm (200acres) he uses at a given time will change during the year from season to season or maybe even the buck just likes to run a sort of "circuit" and spend a few days on this farm then a week on that farm etc giving the buck several preferred beds all together but there is just a couple beds while he is spending his time on a specific (200acre) farm...

These are just hypothetical numbers and sizes of an area, his home range could be bigger or smaller and it could be split amongst more or fewer properties of all different sizes but the generalities of a buck doing this remains the same... You don't have to know every bed he has you just need to know the couple he has on your property and when he is on your property...

Note... Marshes excluded from this explanation

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Re: Observations RE: Hill COuntry DVD

Unread postby BackWoodsHunter » Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:52 am

JV NC wrote:
and isnt that the whole thing. Getting in each specific spot and figuring out when and why that spot so you can hunt those spot when those conditions present themselves.


If you wanna kill him it is! :)

You don't have to find all of his beds, it would be nice if you could and we should make every effort to, but in most cases you would need permission on multiple tracts.


Whooooaaaa! You mean...you think his bedding area might be that big?

Me too (could be). Good point.



But that's not his "bedding area" thats just his home range, with multiple beds scattered throughout it. I hunt bigwoods in northern WI and trail cam pics exchanged with other people shows some bucks with ranges of 2+ miles. They wander all over looking for food. There is no way everyday he is going to return to the same bed for food. But if he is in the area, and the conditions are right for that bed, he will likely be there.
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Re: Observations RE: Hill COuntry DVD

Unread postby cornfedkiller » Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:17 am

BackWoodsHunter wrote:But that's not his "bedding area" thats just his home range, with multiple beds scattered throughout it. I hunt bigwoods in northern WI and trail cam pics exchanged with other people shows some bucks with ranges of 2+ miles. They wander all over looking for food. There is no way everyday he is going to return to the same bed for food. But if he is in the area, and the conditions are right for that bed, he will likely be there.


Exactly..I think some of us are talking about BEDDING AREAS and some are talking about the actual BEDS themselves (which are small)...
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Re: Observations RE: Hill COuntry DVD

Unread postby Grunt » Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:30 am

I guess what I am getting at is the puzzle is different everywhere. Nothing I see in either of the videos is terrain I can relate to here.


Hello JLH,

I am just down the road from you in Snowshoe. You and I seem to be trying to figure out the same type of terrain. I do most of my hunting on State Game Lands where a 120" buck is a trophy so I am talking about public land here for the most part. Personally I have been able to apply a lot of info from Dan's videos to our situation. Points are still points, transition lines are still transition lines. Yes, we might have to walk a mile or so between them but they are there. Any point that gives a buck multiple wind advantages is one I want to spend a lot of time on scouting. One thing I am learning this year is that bedding areas the bucks were using in the fall are now being used by doe groups. IMO, because our habitat only provides a few "prime" bedding areas, these areas get used by all the local deer at certain times of the year. Next to locating bedding areas, I feel the key is to know when the bucks are using the beds. In addition, Dan talks about scouting transition lines in his marsh video. Transition lines in our case are usually where the steep, hemlock/rhododendron covered slopes meet the hardwoods, or where the mountain laurel meets the open timber. It's the same situation just different factors involved and usually on a much larger scale.

I agree, one thing we don't lack here in central PA is hunters. But you can locate areas most hunters don't go. I spent most of gun season hunting a particular buck on a SGL and saw one hunter in 7 days while hunting 3 different stands. I didn't see the buck but gathered some good intel for the future. 99% of the hunters will not go farther than a mile from their vehicle. As Dan states in his videos, go where other hunters don't, be it a thicket 50 yards from the road or 2 miles back in the mountains.

Anyway, just want to say hello and pass along some thoughts.

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Re: Observations RE: Hill COuntry DVD

Unread postby Stump » Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:34 am

Hunter74 wrote:I think it might be easier to look at it like this... A buck has his home range that will consist of let's say 800 acres that he spends his life on... Now we'll say that that 800 acres is split between 4 properties... Now on each property the buck is going to have his bedding area(s) and by that I mean a 3' by 5' spot, and each of these spots is picked because it gives him an advantage to use wind sound cover and to be able to watch what's goin on, now there's not many spots like that on any given property (that's less than a few hundred acres)... So now when you know the buck is on your 200acre property through seeing him or his tracks you should be able to narrow down to 1 or 2 beds he will be in based on wind because (typically) there isn't going to be more possibilities than that that gives the buck all those advantages on 1 property

Basically a fair amount of bucks will have a pretty large area he lives on (800acres) throughout the year and the more precise area or farm (200acres) he uses at a given time will change during the year from season to season or maybe even the buck just likes to run a sort of "circuit" and spend a few days on this farm then a week on that farm etc giving the buck several preferred beds all together but there is just a couple beds while he is spending his time on a specific (200acre) farm...

These are just hypothetical numbers and sizes of an area, his home range could be bigger or smaller and it could be split amongst more or fewer properties of all different sizes but the generalities of a buck doing this remains the same... You don't have to know every bed he has you just need to know the couple he has on your property and when he is on your property...

Note... Marshes excluded from this explanation

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Based on this explanation which I'm going to assume most agree with, the hope is that for the "beast" style of hunting to actually work and for one to be successful at it.....there better be multiple bucks(shooters) using these beds or else it's going to be one long season of sitting there on what could be perfect wind/weather conditions to be hunting that spot, but the buck "you think" that is using this spot might be 2 farms and 400 acres over. You can do everything right, get into a spot undetected, play the thermals right, etc..., etc.... but it could potentially be days before anything shows up. This takes into account that these bucks are receiving no pressure at all. Throw that into the mix and it complicates things 500 times over including travel routes and bedding locations.

Correct assessment?
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Re: Observations RE: Hill COuntry DVD

Unread postby headgear » Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:06 am

Stump wrote:
Based on this explanation which I'm going to assume most agree with, the hope is that for the "beast" style of hunting to actually work and for one to be successful at it.....there better be multiple bucks(shooters) using these beds or else it's going to be one long season of sitting there on what could be perfect wind/weather conditions to be hunting that spot, but the buck "you think" that is using this spot might be 2 farms and 400 acres over. You can do everything right, get into a spot undetected, play the thermals right, etc..., etc.... but it could potentially be days before anything shows up. This takes into account that these bucks are receiving no pressure at all. Throw that into the mix and it complicates things 500 times over including travel routes and bedding locations.

Correct assessment?


The part you might be overlooking is you don't hunt that bed until conditions are right and you find fresh buck sign in the area, or you shine him or get a trail camera photo of him. This more than anything will help increase your odds. Sure you can do and hunt bed randomly and can get on bucks but when you have extra intel of a buck potentially using that bed you will have far more sucess. If I don't see fresh sign going into a set I might back out and check another area until I find some fresh sign of a buck working that area. I have hunted cold areas because I was too far in and didn't have enough time to relocate and those generally end up a bust. However the other times when I see fresh rubs/scrapes/tracking going into my set I know my odds are much better at seeing or shooting that buck.
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Re: Observations RE: Hill COuntry DVD

Unread postby Stump » Wed Jan 25, 2012 3:29 am

headgear wrote:The part you might be overlooking is you don't hunt that bed until conditions are right and you find fresh buck sign in the area, or you shine him or get a trail camera photo of him. This more than anything will help increase your odds. Sure you can do and hunt bed randomly and can get on bucks but when you have extra intel of a buck potentially using that bed you will have far more sucess. If I don't see fresh sign going into a set I might back out and check another area until I find some fresh sign of a buck working that area. I have hunted cold areas because I was too far in and didn't have enough time to relocate and those generally end up a bust. However the other times when I see fresh rubs/scrapes/tracking going into my set I know my odds are much better at seeing or shooting that buck.


Ok, let's take this a step further of which might not be a stretch given how most on here hunt.

Based on your reply. You're hunting public land, you scouted during the months of Jan to July and you found these beds(spots)/travel routes, figured out how to access/exit them and what winds to hunt them and it's not a spot you can glass from a distance. You can't or don't run trail cams because it is public. Seem to be about the run of the mill hunt on public land so far?

1)What do you do next?
A)You don't have any pics of "the buck(s), B)don't know when he's there because you can't glass it from a distance, C)unless you want to booger up the spot, you're not going going to scout around to check for fresh sign, rubs or scrapes everywhere.
2)Or do you scout it with every possibility you will screw it up by either bumping deer(the buck you want to kill) or by scenting it up?
3)Or for the beast style to work, do you need physical proof that a buck is there whether that is by sight or cam pic? You can see a track, but that only tells you the buck has been there. Doesn't necessarily tell you the frequency that he's using the area. Right?
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Re: Observations RE: Hill COuntry DVD

Unread postby jlh42581 » Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:30 am

Stump wrote:
1)What do you do next?
A)You don't have any pics of "the buck(s), B)don't know when he's there because you can't glass it from a distance, C)unless you want to booger up the spot, you're not going going to scout around to check for fresh sign, rubs or scrapes everywhere.
2)Or do you scout it with every possibility you will screw it up by either bumping deer(the buck you want to kill) or by scenting it up?
3)Or for the beast style to work, do you need physical proof that a buck is there whether that is by sight or cam pic? You can see a track, but that only tells you the buck has been there. Doesn't necessarily tell you the frequency that he's using the area. Right?


You could give it a shot and hopefully if you blow him out you can return the next morning or keep busting him till he shifts beds.


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