What about sanctuaries for does?

[BackWoodsHunter]

Maybe this should be on the land management section, but sitting in my stand the other day I had a thought about sanctuaries. I know its a pretty split issue here, I personally do not believe you can contain a buck to a single sanctuary or even a single piece of land unless you own a couple square miles. Some buddies where I hunt have trail camera pictures exchanged with neighbors showing a particular mature buck ranging over 4 miles. They were dead center and 2 miles to the west a guy was getting pics of the buck and a guy 2 miles to the east of them had pics and killed the buck during gun season. I can see a "sanctuary" as a safe haven for a buck and a place to hide out but I don't see one living there all the time. What I do see is does following a fairly strict pattern if everything is right for them, mainly food and water and a little bit of pressure. Maybe this should be in the land management section (mods feel free to move it) but it goes kind of along the lines of the thread Dan started with managing small property. If you don't own square miles of land you probably aren't in control of the whole herd. Also, for the people who own land not all of them live on it and a lot do most of their hunting during the rut. So would creating a sanctuary that held does on your land work? If you could provide them food and water and safe bedding on your land do you think it would increase your buck sightings during the rut? I would assume, like I said aas-u-me, that if a local buck knows you have a half dozen or more does living on your property he would be cruising through checking to see if they were ready to go or not during the rut.

[Bucky]

Yes, that is often the goal with creating food plots/bedding = does

Bucks will follow come late Oct

Habitat improvement works for both....

[dan]

I personally do not believe you can contain a buck to a single sanctuary or even a single piece of land unless you own a couple square miles.

I recall two big bucks that came from the same area.... One traveled and was seen in spots within about a 5 mile circle, the other buck stayed within a square mile and usually a smaller area than that. The buck that stayed in the more confined area dropped all of his sheds within 50 yards of each other at 1 1/2, 2 1/2, & 3 1/2... I killed him at 4 1/2
Point is, you could of confined that buck on a single property most of the time, but the other buck in the same area, no way...

As far as the having more doe bedding areas goes, yes it will put more bucks on your property, both the younger cruisers and the older bucks... On the small 80 acre farm I hunt and help manage, we used to have a good doe bedding area tha was right on a border, another that was in an uncut field, and another on a thick hillside. The field was cut for agriculture, the property next door got a new owner, and the hillside got cut down by orders of the land owner, there was a huge impact on the number of bucks using the buck bedding areas, and there travel roughts changedbecause they no longer checked out the doe bedding areas that were now vacant...
We were still able to bring the buck sightings back up by cutting way back on pressure, but I believe it would be way better if the doe bedding was still there.

[rudy78]

Habitat & food are really all you need to get/keep does on your property, not really sure what you mean about a 'doe sanctuary'? If you mean an area where you don't go at all & stay out of, I try to do that with any known bedding area. Some areas are places where does bed regularly bed and other areas where they will occasionally bed. I always try to avoid the known regular bedding areas, so I guess you could say they are sanctuaries, but it's more just not wanting to bump deer then to have an area I won't go.

As for keeping bucks on your land, i think it can be done if you do some habitat improvements (not with all bucks some are just roamers). If you create all the things a buck wants/needs and keep the pressure down most mature bucks won't leave at least not during the daylight, unless they happen to find a 'hot doe' during their night trips. I think this is where heavy pressure actually helps force big/mature bucks bed more regularly in the exact same spot. The more worried they are about hunting pressure the more cautious they will be about making sure they are bedding in safe places. In an area with heavy pressure they have learned the few places to stay safe, if you do things to create these places on your property and hunt them right you have a good chance of killing one. If the pressure isn't as heavy you aren't hurting yourself by creating a great reason for bucks to stay on your property.
I don't think sanctuaries where you never hunt are helpful, there are times to hunt them or downwind of them, if you don't why would you have them, their purpose is to hold deer so you can shoot them, not just simply hold deer. You have to be smart about how/when, but I think all the land should be open to hunting under the right conditions as long as you can get in/out of it.
I have one really small draw on my lease where the previous 2 years the biggest buck on the farm was killed & there was a giant in it again this year, it is very tough to hunt, but not off limits, just needs to be hunted under the right conditions because you don't get more then a chance or 2 at going into it.

[gjs4]

I would think one of the largest overlooked aspects of deer management is not catering to mature does more so than bucks...because for three weeks of deer hunting they lead bucks around and sort of set the all-around tone for deer movement

[BackWoodsHunter]

I have one really small draw on my lease where the previous 2 years the biggest buck on the farm was killed & there was a giant in it again this year, it is very tough to hunt, but not off limits, just needs to be hunted under the right conditions because you don't get more then a chance or 2 at going into it.

I have a spot on private land like this as well. No mature bucks have been killed in it yet (poor hunters) but all of my mature buck sightings have been in this spot or within close distance, it had an effect on the buck moving there. I hunt as close as I can to the spot because if I get any closer I will be busting deer out of there. I observe all sorts of deer moving into and out of this spot, I cannot pin point if there is a buck bed or multiple buck beds in there or if it is just so thick all the deer hang out in there? Or if it's a doe hang out spot and the bucks just cruise through. This particular spot is what got me thinking about creating hiding spots just for the does on the farm as they seem to be easier to contain. I have noticed they like thicker areas with good visibility and comfort, ie-out of the wind, great view, warm sun late fall/winter, close proximity to food etc etc.

[rudy78]

Does are way easier to contain, but containing them on your farm isn't going to improve your chances that much of killing a mature buck.

I think the mindset that if I have does (lots) on my farm then eventually a big buck will show up & I can kill is not a very productive way of thinking. In some ways the more does you have the harder it becomes to actually kill a big buck & they certainly aren't going to flock your property from miles around like some people think will happen. There becomes a point when you can actually hurt your chance of killing a mature buck by having too many does and not enough good buck bedding/cover/what they want. Mature bucks are different animals more does doesn't = more mature bucks around. If your land because of layout & stuff can only handle 1 mature buck living on it then 98% of the time that is all that will be there regardless of the amount of does on it. I would much rather be worried about creating an environment for bucks then I would for does. I'm not saying you don't need some does on property, but it's only one piece in the puzzle. Mature bucks don't move a ton during daylight hours so you need to create ways to cause them to move not less and having too many does can cause them to move less. Also even where the does bedding areas/feeding areas are can help or hinder your buck movement, the goal shouldn't be just to get mature bucks or does on your farm, you want to do things that are going to help you actually kill them.
I'll add a picture of the draw I'm talking about, it doesn't hold many does at all, but it will about always hold a mature buck. It has nothing to do with does being there.

[BackWoodsHunter]

Does are way easier to contain, but containing them on your farm isn't going to improve your chances that much of killing a mature buck.

I think the mindset that if I have does (lots) on my farm then eventually a big buck will show up & I can kill is not a very productive way of thinking. In some ways the more does you have the harder it becomes to actually kill a big buck & they certainly aren't going to flock your property from miles around like some people think will happen. There becomes a point when you can actually hurt your chance of killing a mature buck by having too many does and not enough good buck bedding/cover/what they want. Mature bucks are different animals more does doesn't = more mature bucks around. If your land because of layout & stuff can only handle 1 mature buck living on it then 98% of the time that is all that will be there regardless of the amount of does on it. I would much rather be worried about creating an environment for bucks then I would for does. I'm not saying you don't need some does on property, but it's only one piece in the puzzle. Mature bucks don't move a ton during daylight hours so you need to create ways to cause them to move not less and having too many does can cause them to move less. Also even where the does bedding areas/feeding areas are can help or hinder your buck movement, the goal shouldn't be just to get mature bucks or does on your farm, you want to do things that are going to help you actually kill them.
I'll add a picture of the draw I'm talking about, it doesn't hold many does at all, but it will about always hold a mature buck. It has nothing to do with does being there.

That interesting? what do you think is so special about this draw for a buck? Also how many acres are you managing and what state? How many bucks of the caliber of the one in your avatar are spotted on the property in a season?

I agree does are only part of the puzzle and their presence doesn't mean I will kill a mature buck but it has to up my odds. If I have a week of vacation each fall I'm not taking it during october I'm shooting for the rut, my best chance to kill a good buck. So if I have a pocket on 40 acres I can hunt that holds 6 does on a daily basis and my neighbor has none on his but he maybe has some buck bedding, lets say he doesn't even it doesn't matter really. Anyways if I am holding does and they are slowly coming into heat and the rut is getting going, won't a buck come checking on my does to see if any of them are ready to go? I'd think so, if I am lonely and in the mood for some fun I'm not going to the bar down the street where married couples and dudes hang out, I'm heading the extra block where I know females are hanging out, maybe they'll finally be receptive! (unlikely but a guy has to try ) Anyways, I can see a high doe density having a reverse effect. If my neighbors and I all have the same mentality we want to hold does and we each keep a half dozen deer locked down on small parcels then yeah the limited number of bucks will probably lock down sooner and travel less.

[rudy78]

That interesting? what do you think is so special about this draw for a buck? Also how many acres are you managing and what state? How many bucks of the caliber of the one in your avatar are spotted on the property in a season?

I agree does are only part of the puzzle and their presence doesn't mean I will kill a mature buck but it has to up my odds. If I have a week of vacation each fall I'm not taking it during october I'm shooting for the rut, my best chance to kill a good buck. So if I have a pocket on 40 acres I can hunt that holds 6 does on a daily basis and my neighbor has none on his but he maybe has some buck bedding, lets say he doesn't even it doesn't matter really. Anyways if I am holding does and they are slowly coming into heat and the rut is getting going, won't a buck come checking on my does to see if any of them are ready to go? I'd think so, if I am lonely and in the mood for some fun I'm not going to the bar down the street where married couples and dudes hang out, I'm heading the extra block where I know females are hanging out, maybe they'll finally be receptive! (unlikely but a guy has to try ) Anyways, I can see a high doe density having a reverse effect. If my neighbors and I all have the same mentality we want to hold does and we each keep a half dozen deer locked down on small parcels then yeah the limited number of bucks will probably lock down sooner and travel less.

I posted this draw and some details about it in another post because you got me thinking more about it & I didn't want to hijack this thread so check that thread out (although I didn't answer yet, i will I just want others to offer why they think).
The property is in IL and is about 270 acres, the N fence is right by this draw (you can see it) so I have these 3 draws & then a chuck of about 80 acres of woods on the S side of the farm that connects to a bigger chunk of woods. One of my neighbors manages for big bucks the others don't, the one to the S gun hunt the crap out of it (130 acres with 6 or 7 people on it every day of gun season shooting anything that moves).
I live in MI so I only travel to hunt down there and pretty much only hunt for a week to 10 days bow-hunting & 7-10 days with gun, all on this piece. Usually the first week of Nov is my bow time, this year I got down on the 3rd & killed on 11th.
This year I killed the buck in my avatar off this farm on my 8th day hunting it and it was my 4th encounter with that buck (he was living on my farm & I pretty much knew where, it was just a matter of catching him on his feet with the right conditions to kill him). Before I killed him I only saw 1 other mature deer on that part of the farm, because I think he owned it and I didn't have very good winds to hunt the N side of the farm much at all in the week. So how many bucks that caliber I saw this year 1 because he ran the place (he was all busted up), but the day before I killed him I did get 1 trail cam of the giant I believe was living in the N draw of the farm, he was also spotted 1 time about 150 N of that draw one morning with a doe & 5 other bucks. I'm pretty confident after I killed my buck another big buck moved into his spot, but I think he was only 3.5 & with it being gun season it is hard for me to tell if he did or another bigger buck may have taken it over).
I highly doubt the buck I shot was moving off my 80 acres of woods during daylight or if he was not very far & this was the prime rut time, he had his area and he was more then happy sticking to it till 'his does' came into heat then he would bread them not worrying about breading every doe out there. He knew he would do what he needed to do & didn't have to chase tail all over to do it. Did he venture off during the night I'm sure he did and could he have found a hot doe while doing that, I'm sure he could have & maybe did, but if he did I guarantee he didn't go chasing her all over creation he holed up somewhere safe with her & bred her & then came back to his bedroom.

As for the whole bar analogy it really doesn't work with older class bucks, they are too smart to think like that most of the time even during the rut. If you want to use that analogy it would be like some stud dude at the bar and there are few ladies hanging around him, in fact some actually come to him. Do you think he is worried about going all over trying to find a girl, no he knows he's pretty much set where he is because he is 'prime meat'. So he more worried about his little spot in the bar then going all over the bar or to all different bars trying to find a lady. Deer aren't like us they don't care how she looks, just that he gets to bred her and it's not like they can bred a 100 or 20 or even 10 does in a year, more like 4. So hes more worried about protecting what he has then trying to find the next 'hot' thing out there.

There are certain times before and after heavy breeding when it can be helpful to have more does because if one is hot, there will be several bucks after her (including mature bucks), but how the heck do you pattern that, it is all just luck of which doe is 'hot' at the right time. If you have a bunch of does on your property I guess you would have a higher chance of this, but how are you going to know which 1, when & pattern that. Still then if you have lots of does maybe more then 1 is 'hot' so it will be which 1 is the 'hot' 1 with the big buck..... you get where I'm going.

[BackWoodsHunter]

That was a long winded but helpful response I see what you're saying and it makes sense regarding the buck protecting his area and himself and monitoring the few does that are his that stay within a range he can safely "control". I guess when I view these scenarios, and even create them, I am focused on one particular area, on one particular chunk of land, sometimes even viewed from one particular stand. (its not always the same area, but my posts are focused in general on one spot not the broad scheme) When people respond they either provide a broad range of generic insight, or very specific insight based on their specific area because they think like me too and both are helpful and eye opening.

Here is a background on my area so you get where I am coming from. I am in northern WI. To the south is planted a couple acres of corn (3 max) that's the only agriculture for atleast 5 or 6 miles and the first in 10+ years! We have snow and cold temps and I drove by that pathetic field and it only had 7 deer in it feeding. We plant small food plots that get eaten down before season, provide minerals, place late season bait to take inventory and run cameras. From July to mid-september we had 15 different bucks on camera biggest was maybe 130", we had 2 does with 2 fawns each, a lone doe and a doe with 1 fawn. We just don't have many deer. So my approach is to make all these does feel comfortable because I don't believe I can contain my 130" buck to my 160 acres of land. I can't provide enough food for him or any water for him to comfortably call my 160 home. I have great cover, but through tracking deer, aerial pictures and stories from family members who used to hunting neighboring land, the neighbors is better. They have thick lowlands and overall better terrain for holding a big buck. How can I compete with that? I know I can compete with it but its a long uphill battle. My buck doesn't care about property lines if he can live more secure 20acres over on Jim Joe's swamp than he can on a thick hill I work to improve for him he is going to chose the swamp. I believe if I can keep some does on that thick hill though, they are close enough he will still come check them out during the rut. I don't plan to draw bucks from 3 miles away, even though it could happen, but I wouldn't mind drawing the bucks just to my side of the property line to check out the ladies I have protected. I should have made this more clear initially.

[rudy78]

I get what you are saying about wanting to keep does on your property in lower deer density areas, if possible the best senario is actually have doe bedding & buck bedding downwind of that. This way he can monitor his does & let them tip him off.

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