Are all shots to the lungs the same?

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Re: Are all shots to the lungs the same?

Unread postby bowhunter15 » Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:44 pm

I can't imagine that a 1 lung hit deer can live. The lung is a primary organ w lots of blood flowing through it. Deer don't suffocate from being hit in the lungs, they bleed to death.


Good point. Deer do suffocate from being double lunged, because the pressure between the lung and chest wall (which is normally negative w.r.t. the atmosphere) drops to zero, and the lungs cannot inflate. However, since they typically goes down in a matter of seconds, massive blood loss appears to kill them before suffocation can.

As for the one lung case... I wasn't quite sure if the intrapleural space was separated between left and right, but it has to be. Otherwise the puncturing of one side would cause both lungs to collapse. This picture is the closest thing I could find to describe this. The lung on the left is unaffected even though the lung on the right is collapsed. The only way someone or something could survive this of course is if the bleeding stopped, which would only happen if very few blood vessels of the lung were cut. Also, breathing would be much more difficult obviously. If the deer was forced to run quickly for a long duration, the extreme oxygen debt could potentially kill it.

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Re: Are all shots to the lungs the same?

Unread postby BackWoodsHunter » Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:56 pm

bowhunter15 wrote:
I can't imagine that a 1 lung hit deer can live. The lung is a primary organ w lots of blood flowing through it. Deer don't suffocate from being hit in the lungs, they bleed to death.


Good point. Deer do suffocate from being double lunged, because the pressure between the lung and chest wall (which is normally negative w.r.t. the atmosphere) drops to zero, and the lungs cannot inflate. However, since they typically goes down in a matter of seconds, massive blood loss appears to kill them before suffocation can.

As for the one lung case... I wasn't quite sure if the intrapleural space was separated between left and right, but it has to be. Otherwise the puncturing of one side would cause both lungs to collapse. This picture is the closest thing I could find to describe this. The lung on the left is unaffected even though the lung on the right is collapsed. The only way someone or something could survive this of course is if the bleeding stopped, which would only happen if very few blood vessels of the lung were cut. Also, breathing would be much more difficult obviously. If the deer was forced to run quickly for a long duration, the extreme oxygen debt could potentially kill it.

Image



I only have 5acres to chase the deer around or when I walked up on it for the third time today I would have chased it on foot until the blood started spilling again. I was 20+ feet up and it was in within 10yards just barely quartering to me. I shot a tad far forward and hit the back of the shoulder blade but the arrow drove down into the chest cavity. The deer took 3 bounds and the arrow actually sort of shot back out. The fletchings never went penetrated the deer but they were so covered in blood that today, 20hrs later, I was able to squeeze a lot of blood out of them. I pulled my nockturnal off the end of the arrow and blood dripped off of it, again this was 20hours after the shot. The hit was high with no pass through so obviously not a great blood trail but I got at least 20inches of penetration probably more. How this deer was still walking around with just a slight limp this afternoon just baffles me. It laid down all day except when I bumped it and its mom but they didn't spook (city deer). and they bedded back down. The first beds I pushed them from this morning were wet with no blood leading me to believe they were out prancing around the city all night before returning to bed there this morning around first light. I never thought a one lung deer could last this long, I feel terrible.
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Re: Are all shots to the lungs the same?

Unread postby dan » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:35 pm

You experiance is right on to a lot of the one lungers I have tracked. They survive several days, sometimes longer unless pushed. And you can't push them on small propertys or if the blood trail is not good. Generally I get blood coming from the mouth though exit or not... The one I hit in late October had no exit wound but I was able to follow the blood trail fairly easy for abou 500 yards then it started petering out. I was surprised to hear my hunting partner saw it almost week later alive.
About 3 years ago, I shot what I thoughty was a large doe in late season gun. Turned out to be a 1 1/2 y/o buck with tiny little 1 inch antlers. When field dressing I discovered it only had one lung, the other side was a nasty gob of cist a goo... Further examination showed a healed over arrow wound likely from the year before.
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Re: Are all shots to the lungs the same?

Unread postby Brandon » Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:24 am

Tracking Deer RULE # 1.

ALWAYS carry the legal weapon used to shoot the deer when TRACKING the deer.

You could have killed that deer a long time ago...
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Re: Are all shots to the lungs the same?

Unread postby BackWoodsHunter » Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:36 am

Brandon wrote:Tracking Deer RULE # 1.

ALWAYS carry the legal weapon used to shoot the deer when TRACKING the deer.

You could have killed that deer a long time ago...



Thanks, what are #'s 2 and 3?
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Re: Are all shots to the lungs the same?

Unread postby BackWoodsHunter » Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:43 am

dan wrote:You experiance is right on to a lot of the one lungers I have tracked. They survive several days, sometimes longer unless pushed. And you can't push them on small propertys or if the blood trail is not good. Generally I get blood coming from the mouth though exit or not... The one I hit in late October had no exit wound but I was able to follow the blood trail fairly easy for abou 500 yards then it started petering out. I was surprised to hear my hunting partner saw it almost week later alive.
About 3 years ago, I shot what I thoughty was a large doe in late season gun. Turned out to be a 1 1/2 y/o buck with tiny little 1 inch antlers. When field dressing I discovered it only had one lung, the other side was a nasty gob of cist a goo... Further examination showed a healed over arrow wound likely from the year before.



So maybe this deer will make it then based on your gun buck experience? I've heard lots of mixed results. We had decent blood but the thing walked in a circle a couple times in less than a 2 acre area then crossed an opening into a thicket and we followed drops of blood then nothing. I would also expect blood to come from the mouth, the shot was high on the deer but I was up high and it was close so the arrow buried down into the chest cavity at a pretty steep angle I thought I got both lungs but if I only hit one I would think it is hit pretty good. Even if it was slightly bleeding from the mouth it rained from 4am through the entire day yesterday. I bumped those deer just creeping through thick cover and checking all the blowdowns I could find. I hunted this morning where I thought it would come through, a different fawn walked within 20ft of me as I sat on the ground but it wasn't the one I am after. Maybe tonight she will come by and I can finish what I started. :cry:
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Re: Are all shots to the lungs the same?

Unread postby Brandon » Wed Dec 14, 2011 2:51 am

BackWoodsHunter wrote:
Brandon wrote:Tracking Deer RULE # 1.

ALWAYS carry the legal weapon used to shoot the deer when TRACKING the deer.

You could have killed that deer a long time ago...



Thanks, what are #'s 2 and 3?


Your Welcome.

# 2 is.... refer to RULE # 1.
# 3 is.... refer to RULE # 2.
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Re: Are all shots to the lungs the same?

Unread postby BackWoodsHunter » Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:05 am

Ah not a very broad set of rules!

In my defense, this is about as urban as urban bowhunting can get. As GrFox posted in the 500 club, even when the authorities know you will be hunting and the property owners know or the city knows (its their land) it still causes tons of trouble just walking all over the place with a weapon of any sort. These deer were essentially in a valley behind a half dozen houses. It's bad enough I was probably wandering on and off the back of their property lines looking for this deer and it gets worse when I am carrying a weapon. I also have pictures of the arrow and the blood on it, the hit drew a lot of blood. The fact that the deer bedded down during the day and went about its nightly activities is beyond puzzling to me. If the location were different I would have had a bow with me, I also would have chased the deer on foot but the last thing I want is for a deer with one lung to cross the busiest street in town and go down into the county park and die next to the playground.
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Re: Are all shots to the lungs the same?

Unread postby Brandon » Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:35 am

ahh I understand now... sorry for giving you a hard time I missed the part about it being so urban you didnt want to carry a weapon... I do understand that and you are the exception to "the rule". lol

are you sure this isnt a backstrap shot?
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Re: Are all shots to the lungs the same?

Unread postby Milk Weed Seed » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:41 am

Arrow bender those were some interesting photos, I nominate you for HB CSI :P
I think it boils down to how tough an individual deer is sometimes, and all the other variables mentioned in this post. Just like when you hear of a person being injured in let's say a car crash... They say "he wouldn't of survived if it wasn't for his excellent physical condition...". Goes back to words not in a hunters vocabulary "always and never", every one lunger is different.

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Re: Are all shots to the lungs the same?

Unread postby BackWoodsHunter » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:58 am

Brandon wrote:ahh I understand now... sorry for giving you a hard time I missed the part about it being so urban you didnt want to carry a weapon... I do understand that and you are the exception to "the rule". lol

are you sure this isnt a backstrap shot?



Thanks LOL yeah actually the only time I could have shot the fawn when I bumped them yesterday was in thick brush and a ricochet likely would have hit the house which was only 75yards or so beyond my target (limpy the fawn). The deer wandered off the property to the north which is about 20acres of private land and swamp. With no blood trail and no defining tracks to follow I didn't want to push it that way. The river was east, neighborhood to the west busy road and city/county park to the south. Its a bad situation but a heck of a spot for seeing deer.

I'm positive it was not a shot to a backstrap. The blood was a good bright red blood and it wasn't thin like water and wasn't thick either. There wasn't any fat on the arrow either just good red blood. The best blood spot we found had bubbles in it. I know the arrow went through the back end of the near side shoulder. I could just tell by the hit but it drove through there likely poking only one lung. With the hit high the blood trail sucked and ran out. When I found the deer's bed yesterday when I bumped them there was a small spot of blood that was pink/red in color and was similar to the puss that forms between the hide and carcass around a gun shot wound. (you know that nasty slime I'm talking about when you skin a deer that is always around the wound) Also, based on the angle if I got backstrap it still poked down into the chest cavity further...its just a troubling situation and has me really bummed out. I hunted this morning and tonight with no sign of the fawn. School is coming to an end thursday but I am so preoccupied with finishing this deer I can't focus on exams. I may hunt tomorrow morning before class otherwise I will be at it thursday. I will hunt the AM then search grids again.
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Re: Are all shots to the lungs the same?

Unread postby Brad » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:30 pm

I have seen pics of the arrow, it was for sure a lung hit, not sure how this deer went as far as it did based on the sign on the arrow.
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Re: Are all shots to the lungs the same?

Unread postby BackWoodsHunter » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:38 pm

Brad Lamont wrote:I have seen pics of the arrow, it was for sure a lung hit, not sure how this deer went as far as it did based on the sign on the arrow.


I have a "stupid" phone or I'd post them LOL.
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Re: Are all shots to the lungs the same?

Unread postby Brad » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:39 pm

If you want me to post it for you, I can.
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Re: Are all shots to the lungs the same?

Unread postby BackWoodsHunter » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:46 pm

Brad Lamont wrote:If you want me to post it for you, I can.



That'd be very cool, note that the picture was taken 20hours after the shot too and look at the blood on there yet! Also, the fletching and knock never actually penetrated the skin of the deer.
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