Managing your herd for bigger bucks!?

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JakeJD
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Re: Managing your herd for bigger bucks!?

Unread postby JakeJD » Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:48 am

I think it really boils down to the fact that no one can effectively manage deer for trophy potential on a free roaming herd via cull bucks. I have heard some biologists say that up to 80% of the antler potential is carried by the momma, so killing supposedly inferior bucks is only a small piece of the puzzle.


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Re: Managing your herd for bigger bucks!?

Unread postby JV NC » Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:49 am

Yes. I should have said 3rd rack.

I've also never seen a true 2.5yo with only spikes. I'm sure this occurs. But, I've just never seen it.

An easy "fix" for your conundrum would be to:

1. Only shoot bucks on their 3rd rack.
or
2. Forget about the "mgmt" aspect of it, and shoot whatever you want. There's nothing wrong with this practice, at all.

It's pretty easy to tell 2.5's from other aged deer, HERE. I can't speak for other parts of the country. I don't look @ 2.5's as targets - unless they're from the deeper end of the gene pool. In the woods I hunt, "cull" never comes to mind....any more than "mgmt. buck" does.
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Re: Managing your herd for bigger bucks!?

Unread postby JakeJD » Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:55 am

As an interesting side note, my father shot an absolute hoss this year with his rifle. The buck had to be at least 4 y/o. It was the biggest bodied deer I have seen in person. In fact, it broke the first piece of lumber used to hang the deer. The rack was a very small, wire rack 6 point.

For most deer, age is the biggest factor in becoming a trophy; however, not all deer are meant to be wall hangers.
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Re: Managing your herd for bigger bucks!?

Unread postby BackWoodsHunter » Thu Dec 08, 2011 2:56 am

JV NC wrote:Yes. I should have said 3rd rack.

I've also never seen a true 2.5yo with only spikes. I'm sure this occurs. But, I've just never seen it.

An easy "fix" for your conundrum would be to:

1. Only shoot bucks on their 3rd rack.
or
2. Forget about the "mgmt" aspect of it, and shoot whatever you want. There's nothing wrong with this practice, at all.

It's pretty easy to tell 2.5's from other aged deer, HERE. I can't speak for other parts of the country. I don't look @ 2.5's as targets - unless they're from the deeper end of the gene pool. I[glow=red]n the woods I hunt, "cull" never comes to mind....any more than "mgmt. buck" does.[/glow]


I agree with that I don't hunt big enough land or have the other management aspect in place to be the guy who is sorting out who stays and who gets removed from the deer population.

I am working on shooting deer only on their third rack but that's hard when running trail cams and you pick up 15 different bucks that are all 2.5yrs or younger and only one that is older than that.
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Re: Managing your herd for bigger bucks!?

Unread postby BackWoodsHunter » Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:04 am

jakedeaver wrote:As an interesting side note, my father shot an absolute hoss this year with his rifle. The buck had to be at least 4 y/o. It was the biggest bodied deer I have seen in person. In fact, it broke the first piece of lumber used to hang the deer. The rack was a very small, wire rack 6 point.

For most deer, age is the biggest factor in becoming a trophy; however, not all deer are meant to be wall hangers.



Would be interesting to see the history of that deer and why he just never developed anything beyond that 6pt. Is it possible he was much older and the rack was starting to decline? I don't know would be interesting to find out though. If in fact he just never was meant to grow to be a trophy that is what I was getting at in the original post is there a way to tell and is it something genetic or if a deer will just never be a monster that a guy should shoot him? Its all hypothetical really. Despite what our DNR says and wanting to kill everything I like to let as many deer walk as possible unless I really need the meat or I see a buck I want to shoot.
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Re: Managing your herd for bigger bucks!?

Unread postby Casper » Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:50 am

DEERSLAYER wrote:A yearling is a 1.5 year old. Fawns are usually nubbins, but a friend seen about a 40 lb spike one year that he said had to be a fawn. It said it was tiny but had 5" spikes.

I have a pic I'll post later that has the body of a fawn but has forks on both sides (in class right now). Maybe a very late born fawn or premature birth?
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Re: Managing your herd for bigger bucks!?

Unread postby JakeJD » Thu Dec 08, 2011 4:40 am

[/quote]Would be interesting to see the history of that deer and why he just never developed anything beyond that 6pt. Is it possible he was much older and the rack was starting to decline? I don't know would be interesting to find out though. If in fact he just never was meant to grow to be a trophy that is what I was getting at in the original post is there a way to tell and is it something genetic or if a deer will just never be a monster that a guy should shoot him? Its all hypothetical really. Despite what our DNR says and wanting to kill everything I like to let as many deer walk as possible unless I really need the meat or I see a buck I want to shoot.[/quote]

I doubt the deer was an older buck that was that much past his prime. He was dogging a doe when my dad shot him, so he was still actively involved in the breeding. I would say there is a very small chance that the deer was past his prime. He was a healthy, huge bodied deer that was still actively breeding does. Don't know for sure, but I would bet he was in his prime and just never developed much for head gear for whatever reason.
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Re: Managing your herd for bigger bucks!?

Unread postby Bucky » Thu Dec 08, 2011 6:10 am

I know of two 4sure WI 5yr old bucks that scored in the 120s... not every deer gets trophy sized antlers. Culling in a wild herd is IMO pointless... I don't believe it works. Just my observations
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Re: Managing your herd for bigger bucks!?

Unread postby DEERSLAYER » Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:50 am

BackWoodsHunter wrote:In the first paragraph, if I read correctly, you're saying that just because a buck has spikes at an age beyond 2.5 yrs old it could be due to poor nutrition and his off spring still could grow to be great deer if something about the nutrition situation changes? That makes sense I never thought of that, the area where I hunt nutrition is definitely the biggest thing missing from a management plan.

Yes. However, it would have to be extremely poor nutrition. In the north for a 2.5 to have small spikes most of the time it is a combination of a harsh winter and poor habitat where that deer chooses to winter over. The reason I say small spikes is because if I see 18" spikes with great mass I'm not going to be to concerned about that. The genetics of some deer put all the growth into the body for the first couple years so that is another possibility. Also, a buck can be stunted as a fawn trying to survive his first winter (or just plain nutritionally stunted through out their whole first year). Sometimes to the point that they can never reach their genetic potential. In this case it is possible for a buck with otherwise super genetics to never break 100" in the wild.

BackWoodsHunter wrote:The last part makes sense too, essentially its not the deer's fault he has spikes the winters are too harsh, there's too little food or too much stress for him to be 100% healthy and live up to his potential, no?

Yes, that is one of several possibilities.

BackWoodsHunter wrote:I believe the cousin I was discussing this with was judging the deer off body size more than anything. Basically if it was bigger than a yearling (1.5yr old) they were going to shoot it.

I would be careful of basing age off body size. Quite a few times I have heard of guys shooting yearlings that weighed a lot more than what was "normal" for the area (140-150 lbs). I shot a yearling spike that wieghed 142 lbs in an area where most yearlings dresse out at 95-115 lbs. A 125 pounder was considered a big yearling in this county and was often assumed to be 2 1/2. There are two things that I have found to be real eye openers to most average deer hunters. One is learning how to tell a yearling from it's teeth and the other is a scale. People are often surprised to learn their deer is not as old or heavy as they thought. :)

BackWoodsHunter wrote:The scenario they presented was if 2 bucks comes in a yearling with a nice 6 or 8 point rack and a buck that appeared to be 2.5yrs old and old had spikes or maybe 3 points they would shoot the bigger deer with spikes and let the younger one with a promising rack walk. Interesting concept from their perspective, what I am hearing here is that is doesn't necessarily matter either way.

In this situation I would do the same thing if I was going to shoot one of them. It's possible the spike has greater antler potential but the odds are FAR greater that the other buck has the greatest potential.

BackWoodsHunter wrote:I wouldn't base my hunts off it I have 2 bucks on camera I was hunting for the rest were getting a pass unless we needed meat. (I shoot spikes instead of does any day of the week) Either way, if I had the power to manage a herd of some sort and the tags to do so its good to know I shouldn't go blasting every big bodied spike I see!!!!

Unless I didn't have many does I would take a doe. The only way I would shoot a spike is if I didn't have room for all the bucks I had. Even then I would probably let him go and hope the neighbors shoot him before a nice yearling 6-8 point came be them. Plus you never know what that spike might end up being. I remember one study where a pen raised buck had a 3" spike on one side and a 2" spike on the other with a 1" brow point. I don't remember what his 2.5 year old rack was, but I don't remember it being anything special. However, I do remember the sweet looking 201" non typical rack he had at 5 1/2! Although if I had a very aggressive spike running off my nice racked yearlings then his day's would be numbered!

If you "need" meat you could also find somewhere else to hunt. Let's face it, most hunters don't really "need" the meat. If they did they wouldn't be spending money on things like hunting, the internet, etc.
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Re: Managing your herd for bigger bucks!?

Unread postby Casper » Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:06 am

Here is the buck, he definitely has the body of a buck fawn...

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Re: Managing your herd for bigger bucks!?

Unread postby DEERSLAYER » Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:13 am

BackWoodsHunter wrote:I agree with that I don't hunt big enough land or have the other management aspect in place to be the guy who is sorting out who stays and who gets removed from the deer population...

I think you have enough land at 160 acres. Unfortunately you don't have total control.

Casper wrote:Here is the buck, he definitely has the body of a buck fawn...

I think he is a yearling. It looks like he has good potential though.
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Re: Managing your herd for bigger bucks!?

Unread postby JV NC » Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:36 am

The buck photo above.....looks like a yearling. He looks too long to be a fawn.

Just my .02.

Also.....he's not just got antlers. He's branched!
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Re: Managing your herd for bigger bucks!?

Unread postby BackWoodsHunter » Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:51 am

Sweet pic casper. I've only seen bucks that size with any rack development in areas of high agriculture. Nothing like that where I hunt...crazy how a matter of miles and a change of scenery can so greatly affect growth and development in the same animals.


DS- lots of good points too many to quote and respond too cuz we seem to be on the same page on all of them minus the doe/small buck shooting. I love to pass on the small bucks and let them walk but our doe numbers are really low I would say. In one camera check in July I had 13 different bucks in a 2 week period and a total of 5 does (I could tell by the fawns they brought with them to take pics). I suppose I truly don't need venison but I feel that hunting is something I NEED to do. I don't spend money elsewhere really. Being a college student the difference between eating double helpings of mac n cheese a couple nights a week and eating fresh steaks once or twice a week sometimes comes down to the harvest of a small buck. I had plenty of opportunities to shoot small bucks and does all over the state on all sorts of public and private spots and elected to pass however because this year I was hungry for horns! :twisted: Anyhow thanks for the input lots of good advice and additions to the thread. I try to let the spikes walk but thought this was an interesting hypothetical I could post and see varying inputs and research. I believe it worked.
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Re: Managing your herd for bigger bucks!?

Unread postby Casper » Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:25 am

I know the pic I posted is a yearling, but he has body of a fawn. I don't think fawns grow spikes, so this is a perfect example for someone to think it was. He's a runt compared to the other yearlings.

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Re: Managing your herd for bigger bucks!?

Unread postby ozzz » Fri Dec 09, 2011 6:07 am

The way I see it, let all bucks live to potential

Encourages fawn survival to increase number of total fawns (bucks)

Also kill does if necessary
If it bleeds, we can kill it . . . .


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