Smarter bucks on public vs private land?

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Why are mature bucks smarter on public land?

Genetics. Dumb deer get killed before breeding on public.
2
3%
Mature bucks learned to associate humans with danger on public
19
29%
Both
15
23%
Niether. Mature bucks have equal intelligence on public & private
30
45%
 
Total votes: 66
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Smarter bucks on public vs private land?

Unread postby dan » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:16 pm

To me... Deer seem smarter or more inteligent on public land. I personally think it has to do with 2 things. 1st, genetic evolving. I think if your a lower inteligence level deer on public your going to die pretty quick. Before you ever get a chance to breed and pass that trait on... Stupid dies.
But on managed private you notice deer walking around in the open in broad daylight regardless of the number of deer on the private or public... The managed little lower inteligence buck is going to get a free pass.
2nd, deer learn to associate danger with people a lot quicker on pressured public than on managed farms.

Thoughts?


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Re: Smarter bucks on public vs private land?

Unread postby RaisedByWolves » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:30 pm

I had to vote neither....I believe the public bucks are more wary because of more run-in's with humans, not necessarily smarter, just more experience.... if they were that smart, they would find a nice piece of private land to bed on with little to no hunting pressure. However, the more I think about this topic and hang out on the beast, the less I think in terms of public/private, but instead low pressure/high pressure. How many big bucks live solely on public or private?
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Re: Smarter bucks on public vs private land?

Unread postby cornfedkiller » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:33 pm

I think you are correct Dan.. I remember you And a bunch of others basically stating this was the reason that the lakoskys (and others on a ton of managed land) have no problem killing big mature deer over a food plot during the daylight...

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Re: Smarter bucks on public vs private land?

Unread postby cornfedkiller » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:35 pm

Excellent point RBW.. I guess I didn't think about that.. Genetics probably doesn't have a ton to do with it bc i would assume it takes a looong time for genetic differences to show.. But experience probably has more to do with it..

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Re: Smarter bucks on public vs private land?

Unread postby adrenalin » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:40 pm

Well I think it's kind of obvious that bucks on pressured public have to either be extremely lucky or learn fast at a young age how to avoid danger. I know the debate goes on forever Public versus private, but most people that have spent enough time hunting both know just how hard it can be to get on a big buck on public. I have hunted both and the private I hunted was never managed or even unpressured. There sure seems to be a difference in bucks that have to fight for survival everyday of there lives, versus those who don't.
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Re: Smarter bucks on public vs private land?

Unread postby BCam » Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:19 pm

What is the difference between heavily pressured public and heavily pressured private? It sounds to me like on these big chunks of public land, bucks actually have chance to get to an older age because of remote areas located within the large parcel? Pressured private, at least what i'm used to, There are no remote areas. A lot of landowners with a lot of hunters. So i guess my vote would be heavy pressure is heavy pressure, deer don't care if it's private or public.

I personally think that in heavy pressure a buck has to be a little lucky first and then they learn from those negative experiences if they survive. Obviously bucks on managed private do not have negative or life threatening experiences until they are " of age" so they are going to be easier to hunt. I'm no expert, this is just my two cents.
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Re: Smarter bucks on public vs private land?

Unread postby BigHills BuckHunter » Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:01 pm

cornfedkiller wrote:I think you are correct Dan.. I remember you And a bunch of others basically stating this was the reason that the lakoskys (and others on a ton of managed land) have no problem killing big mature deer over a food plot during the daylight...

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First of all I think the Lakoskys have the success they have due to owning thousands of acres of land with great protein ie food sources, genetics, very little pressure and Trophy deer managment not QDM. Whether they go to the point of hormones and steroids I have no clue, I sure hope not. I remember Lee specifically saying in a TV show they dont drive their land at all and just let the neighbors kick up the deer to them so they can take them later on with a muzzleloader.
I think its about the number of experiences with humans the deer has. The more encounters that kick them up or scare them the more wary they become. I dont agree with deer being smarter on public just more wary or cautious. I dont think wary or being more cautious means smart. I believe its a learned trait. Some would argue a learned trait would mean the animal is smarter but I would say every deer has this capability to learn not just a select few. If you were a smarter buck that could reason better than other deer why bed in an area where there is constant pressure or heavy pressure; why dont they move to a different area with less pressure if they are smarter?
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Re: Smarter bucks on public vs private land?

Unread postby muddy » Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:15 pm

I voted neither based on the places I hunt. Even on my very very best private land I still share it with other people, and they (in my opinion) hunt it like idiots so bucks get just as much pressure IF NOT MORE than some of the public land bucks around me. The only way I'd say mature bucks are "dumber" on private land areas is if those private land areas are immense chunks of ground locked up and only a few people hunt them in cooperation.

Even the Lakosky's and Kisky's have more than just themselves on their ground so technically their deer are getting more pressure than we realize. Realtree prostaffers, hunting celebrities, and yes even tresspassers are all over their ground each and every year.

Heck, even that weirdo Jack Brittingham has tough times shooting the mature bucks on his properties and he puts up high fences around 1500-2500 acres at a pop and has rules that nothing under 7.5 gets shot.
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Re: Smarter bucks on public vs private land?

Unread postby BigHills BuckHunter » Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:25 pm

muddy wrote:I voted neither based on the places I hunt. Even on my very very best private land I still share it with other people, and they (in my opinion) hunt it like idiots so bucks get just as much pressure IF NOT MORE than some of the public land bucks around me. The only way I'd say mature bucks are "dumber" on private land areas is if those private land areas are immense chunks of ground locked up and only a few people hunt them in cooperation.

Even the Lakosky's and Kisky's have more than just themselves on their ground so technically their deer are getting more pressure than we realize. Realtree prostaffers, hunting celebrities, and yes even tresspassers are all over their ground each and every year.

Heck, even that weirdo Jack Brittingham has tough times shooting the mature bucks on his properties and he puts up high fences around 1500-2500 acres at a pop and has rules that nothing under 7.5 gets shot.


So im assuming you are one of the lucky ones to hunt on the Lakoskys with all that you know... :lol: ;)
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Re: Smarter bucks on public vs private land?

Unread postby Stanley » Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:10 pm

Public land close to metropolitan areas is much different than public land in some of the more remote areas. So labeling all public land equal is really not accurate in my opinion. Same goes with private land. I know of some private land that gets pounded way harder than some of the public land. Most of the public land around where I live gets pounded and the parcels are not very big.
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Re: Smarter bucks on public vs private land?

Unread postby JakeJD » Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:27 pm

I hunt some private land that sees very little deer hunting pressure. The land is not managed by any means, but very few bucks are killed on the land every year. There are a few duck hunters on the river, and I am sure the neighbors do some hunting. The property has new barbed wire fence around the perimeter and is littered with "no tresspassing" signs. Even with this low pressure situation, I rarely see mature bucks on their feet in daylight and they do not make many mistakes. In this area, I tend to hunt rut sign from the previous year (downwind of doe bedding areas, primary scrape areas, etc.). I am still learning the "beast" method and trying to find/interpret buck beds.

With that said, I do not believe there is a difference in intelligence. I just believe high pressure deer are more conditioned to be cautious / nervous by all the human intrustion. From the moment of their birth, high pressure deer walk on eggs shells by being in constant (or perceived) danger.

There is no way that our selective hunting (killing stupid deer) has had any impact on the genetics or evolution of the local herd. We would need thousands of years of conditions to produce evolutionary effects. Plus, deer wander too much and bucks get kicked out of their home range at 1.5 y/o, so new genes are constantly being introduced to an area.
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Re: Smarter bucks on public vs private land?

Unread postby Kodiakman » Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:32 pm

if you are educating, the blaket statement is you are making that deer smarter in general. But this is the old "don't confuse intelligence with knowledge" arguement. If you know more, I guess it doesn't matter how you attained it, through supperior genes or better schooling. Genius vs. some dope Rich Kid and his higher end schools. Bottom line is you are equiped with a better set of tools than the next guy so you have a much better shot.

I would say that experience has made public bucks more aware and wary so that makes them harder to get at. They have learned that 90% of the time when people that come in here are trying to kill something.

If you are out in your fields picking or planting, deer will almost come up to your machine and ask you what time it is. That's what they've learned.

I guess if you are asking flat out are deer 4 miles away, genetically more intelligent than deer on this private track... I say no. But they do have the disposition to become more aware due to life experiences in the habbit they choose as home. I think it would take a much smaller population, longer time duration, and equal land ratios, and a NO kidding divider- to start to see a mutation on a intelligence level worth attempting to compare. The lines are too blurry. Comparing general intelligenc of deer state to state would have a better gauge if you were looking for a answer now. I chose B. I don't believe them to be genetically smarter, just certain heavily pressured areas become better educated.
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Re: Smarter bucks on public vs private land?

Unread postby Kodiakman » Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:52 pm

Now throwing all that said away. I'll take another different fun angle to look at things just to stir the pot. For arguement's sake say there really are smarter deer and there are dumb deer, and this is a certainty. Maybe the lower quality of the land IS the key to locating smart deer vs dumb instead of land ownership. Is it just a coincidence that smart deer prefer swamp, and the most the area's swamp becomes public. In turn, most public land is only swamp. So then.... mostly smart deer would end up on public if you bring it back full circle, because it is swamp. I just went cross eyed. Haha. ;)
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Re: Smarter bucks on public vs private land?

Unread postby JV NC » Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:24 pm

I didn't read all the responses. But.....

In your example, you're comparing apples to oranges.

Deer only know "pressure". They don't know if the land they're on is public or private. And...."Private" does not equal "managed/un-pressured" any more than "Public" = "unmanaged/un-pressured".

Dumb deer die quicker.
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Re: Smarter bucks on public vs private land?

Unread postby muddy » Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:02 pm

BigHills BuckHunter wrote:So im assuming you are one of the lucky ones to hunt on the Lakoskys with all that you know... :lol: ;)


No I'm not, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that theyr'e not the only ones on their land. Watch their TV shows or the Realtree videos (which are pretty much one and the same) and you'll see what I mean. Blake Shelton and his girlfriend/wife both hunt with the Lakosky's pretty much every year. The Bone Collector crew hunts on both Lakosky and Kisky's ground. Bill Jordan and David Blanton both have mentioned Lakosky's and have been in the Lakosky living room during taping.

That being said, and getting back to the subject at hand, old mature bucks have something built in and it doesn't take much to tip them off. Whether you're hunting public land, or private land, they're dang hard and nearly impossible to kill.

The only example I really have is that buck I shot last year during gun season. My buddy had history iwth that buck for 4+ years including sheds, trail cameras, etc. When he started hunting this private property the buck was 3 or 4 years old and he NEVER saw the buck until last year when I shot it. Not one trail camera picture in 4 years during daylight, that's pretty freaking crazy. If we hadn't been in the right place while the neighbors walked into the timber that buck would still be alive and popping.
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