Smarter bucks on public vs private land?

[Stanley]

I am sure survival instincts are some of the factors involved. If you hunt the same stand day after day what happens? If a dog is chained up in the yard and barking how does the buck in the field know this? How does the rabbit know to stay on the outside of the fence when the junk yard dogs are present? How does the squirrel know to go to the opposite side of the tree when danger exists? Why do turkeys roost at night?

It's all about survival. I don't think public or private is the determining point. I think hunting pressure is the defining point. I know some private ground that is hunted way harder than some public spots. These private spots are tough to hunt. Usually the biggest difference between private and public is the amount of doofuses roaming around.

[Mario]

i think a mature buck learns the dangers of human presence on both private and public. but I think its all about conditioning, on private land with low pressure deer can be conditioned to certain behaviors... They may learn the farmers tractor is no danger... but a truck traveling to the front of the field is danger.. learned conditions based on what they experience.

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[Hoyt63]

I think you are correct Dan.. I remember you And a bunch of others basically stating this was the reason that the lakoskys (and others on a ton of managed land) have no problem killing big mature deer over a food plot during the daylight...

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First of all I think the Lakoskys have the success they have due to owning thousands of acres of land with great protein ie food sources, genetics, very little pressure and Trophy deer managment not QDM. Whether they go to the point of hormones and steroids I have no clue, I sure hope not. I remember Lee specifically saying in a TV show they dont drive their land at all and just let the neighbors kick up the deer to them so they can take them later on with a muzzleloader.
I think its about the number of experiences with humans the deer has. The more encounters that kick them up or scare them the more wary they become. I dont agree with deer being smarter on public just more wary or cautious. I dont think wary or being more cautious means smart. I believe its a learned trait. Some would argue a learned trait would mean the animal is smarter but I would say every deer has this capability to learn not just a select few. If you were a smarter buck that could reason better than other deer why bed in an area where there is constant pressure or heavy pressure; why dont they move to a different area with less pressure if they are smarter?

The Lakosky's are members of QDMA and in fact held the deer steward seminar at their place last month.

[keb]

The public land deer are smarter. Take for instance 1000 acres 10 guys huning it pretty hard in southern iowa, but passing up small bucks. Take 1000 acres of public in southern iowa, with who knows how many people hunting it. We could pretty much predict where the best spots on the private would be, via map, ect.

The public would a different story, cause they have there own script they live by and more savvy then their private land brothers. So they are smarter, in my book, they either get smart, die or move.

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[MOBIGBUCKS]

I've hunted both and the public deer are hands down harder to hunt. No doubt. I've also hunted private where just about everyone has access that asks, etc; these deer are no different than public deer. Very smart. It is so crazy how heavily hunted deer get conditioned to looking up at hunters in the trees! Even fawns in these areas look up! Dumb deer in these areas simply do not survive to pass on their genetics...Only the strong survive.

[JoeRE]

I think some of you guys are over thinking this a bit. The more danger a deer is subject to, the more wary it needs to be to survive, or it won't. I think its that simple.

As hunting pressure is reduced, wariness also reduces. Doesn't matter what land it is - a lot of private (I bet over half) gets hammered as hard or harder than public around here.

Favorable genetic differences take many many generations to show themselves though, probably not there yet. You would need sustained pressure for many decades maybe centuries I am not sure.

[keb]

50/50

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[UPbowhunter]

I think if deer aren't getting shot at yil their 5+ they really aren't learning much. So the pressure on private land where they are still walking til their five isn't really the same pressure as the public pressure. So the Lakowski pressure isn't the same as public pressure. Also on that type of land entry and exit as wellas stand sights are all controlled by one guy. Not the same as public. I don't believe deer are smart any where. Only instinctive. Public nocturnal

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[JakeJD]

I think some of you guys are over thinking this a bit. The more danger a deer is subject to, the more wary it needs to be to survive, or it won't. I think its that simple.

I agree with this 100%. Deer are naturally reclusive and wary and the more reclusive (nocturnal) and the more wary they are the better their chance of survival. I am not sure the "nervous wreck" gene is something that exists or can be passed on.

On the other hand, deer can be conditioned to avoid hunters, look up in trees, etc. but doesn't have anything to do with intelligence. We, as hunters, are conditioning the deer not impacting genetics or speeding up evolution. Evolution take hundreds or thousands of years, not 20 or 30 years of heavy hunting pressure.

[JakeJD]

BTW, I voted for option that deer are deer, public or private. The amount of danger (conditioning) present in their environment is what determines their "perceived intelligence."

[spiker2930]

What is the difference between heavily pressured public and heavily pressured private? It sounds to me like on these big chunks of public land, bucks actually have chance to get to an older age because of remote areas located within the large parcel? Pressured private, at least what i'm used to, There are no remote areas. A lot of landowners with a lot of hunters. So i guess my vote would be heavy pressure is heavy pressure, deer don't care if it's private or public.

I personally think that in heavy pressure a buck has to be a little lucky first and then they learn from those negative experiences if they survive. Obviously bucks on managed private do not have negative or life threatening experiences until they are " of age" so they are going to be easier to hunt. I'm no expert, this is just my two cents.

XX2

[dan]

The title might of been confusing, but it was pretty clear that we are comparing pressured public to non-pressured private...
This is not a debate about differing amounts of pressure on different public parcels...

If pressure dictates how well deer react to humans, then why have I hunted land that has moderate pressure where there is a strict size limit and young deer that run into hunters and survive continue to make mistakes and act stupid till there old enough, or big enough to be shot, while similar pressure public land where most people shoot any thing the deer react very wary?

[JoeRE]

If pressure dictates how well deer react to humans, then why have I hunted land that has moderate pressure where there is a strict size limit and young deer that run into hunters and survive continue to make mistakes and act stupid till there old enough, or big enough to be shot, while similar pressure public land where most people shoot any thing the deer react very wary?

No disagreement with that. "Trophy hunting" pressure and "if its brown its down" hunting pressure are very different. The hunters act completely different even if there are say 30 hunters in the woods per square mile in each case and deer can tell the difference.

I guess when I think of hunting pressure I'm taking into account what type of pressure it is too. Yearlings with slugs flying around their ears learn to be wary quick.

[bowmike]

I can say this from my observations on PA public land. A yearling buck will come in to calling non stop walking, check the wind maybe a few times and comes in rather quickly. The 3 year old bucks i have witnessed come in and stop about every 20 yards or so to scent check and look around. If a yearling hears a metal noise or something they stop, scent check and keep going in a matter of a minute. I watch some mature PA bucks stand still for 5-10 minutes after a goof I had.

I noticed that these yearlings may also catch my scent and stop but continue moving in closer and stomp the whole way. If a mature buck catches my scent he will normall stop look around for maybe 2 mins and then bolt the way he came in.

Granted you get bucks in that "stupid" state of mind but quite often even while chasing a doe these public land beasts will be on the weary side.

Here is a story about an encounter i had 2 years ago just after hitting a buck on a 40 yard shot and not recovering him. This buck was a typ. decent 6 point by PA public land standards. After not hitting a perfect shot i opted to only take a buck within 30 yards.

It was the opener for PA's fall turkey season. I had the flock below me all year and expected some turkey hunting activity. I laid 2 scent trails to a decoy i put out in front of me. I was hunting a thermal tunnel on a saddle of a steeper mountain side. The prevailing wind was at my back and the thermals were cranking full swing.

I had saw a hunter and waved my orange vest at him. He crossed my scent trail I laid just at day break. He saw me but proceded down the ridge and set up about 70 yards away but out of site. I decided to be the better guy and not rattle until 8:30 or 9:00. I listened to him call the flock in but they hung up as I expected on a cliff. I heard those november leaves start crunching and saw a heavy horned 8 point coming my way.

He was right on the scent trail I had laid to the decoy. I was a bit bummed because i knew the turkey hunter crossed the scent trail. Even at 2 hours or so before as soon as the buck hit the hunters trail he popped his head up and went of full alert. I snort wheezed at him to calm him down and he kept coming in. Just then the turkey hunter below, must have heard this buck coming in to my calling and starting going bananas with his call. I knew he was deliberatly trying to spook the buck. The buck would start to back away but he could not resist the other buck in his area. I called him to about 40 yards and the turkey guy kept going off. Annoying to say the least because i know this guy sounded great when he was calling to the turkeys and this sounded more like a ring neck.

I kept the bucks intererst for about 15 minutes and knew i had to make something happen. I did some tending grunts and an estrous bleat followed by more tending grunts. I aimed it down the hill to try and drag this buck in front of me. It worked too well and the buck floored it down the hill. I snort weezed him at 40 yards and had him stop again. I decided to pass on that shot because of wounded the other buck at a similar distance. The buck ended up catching me and bolted. I was able to rattle him back in about an hour later but he stayed out at 70 yards.

This encounter both helps and hurts the theory of public land bucks. This deer knew there was a guy around and picked up his scent 2 hours after it was laid, but i still kept his interest for 15 minutes and kept him into bow range.

I feel that public land bucks are way more weary to hunters, because of encounters, but can still fall victim to calling and scent during the rut.

I more often then not find myself taking the first legal buck, but watching a mature buck on heavily hunted public land is breath taking. They stop and scent check, any un natural noise causes them to lock up for 10 minutes at a time. I hope to hold out for a big one this year but time restraints and an empty freezer always make me go for meat instead of bone.

[tim]

I think mature bucks are equally smart on either. ive hunted both situations little pressured deer and heavily pressured deer and once a deer hits maturity its smart regardless. that being said I don't buy into the evolution crap either cause I simply don't believe in evolution im still waiting for the day i see mature bucks come out and feed in the fields on any of the private farms I hunt it just aint happeneing. im sure it happens somewhere maybe on a farm tucked back off the beaten path with zero human disturbance. that aint my reality though. im hunting awesome private farms in some circumstances but u still got trespassers,dogs etc.... that is out of most peoples control. my opinion