Following Rubs

[dan]

Where we did the workshop on Saturday is a very large area... We straight lined a pathe from one side of the public to the other, that was over 3.5 miles one way, and the area was about that wide. However, almost all of the mature buck bedding is down in the cattails and dogwood. Its in the spots where there is water surrounding the beds on this property... Try and find rubs there... You will, and even a couple rublines along the transition a hundred yards or so from bedding. But its nothing like the giant rublines, and perennial rubbed trees that you find over a mile from the bedding where there are crop fields and oak trees on the public land. The sides of the fields are littered with big rubs and rublines. Almost as many rubs as trees stands... But you very, very, rarely see a mature buck, or any buck for that matter, that far away from the bedding... Not even in rut. I have been hunting there for over 2 decades and have killed probably close to a dozen good bucks in that stretch of public. Seen many more. I can only recall a couple that were not bedding in the cattails over a mile from the rubs and crops... Those rubs are useless to me except that they attract attention and keep it away from where the bucks really are... Everytime I see a big buck shining in those crops, or catch a trail cam pic, I end up seeing or killing it down in the bedding area. Over a mile away...

Certainly every situation is different, but, I would try to determine where the bucks bed and hang out in daylight prior to deciding if a rub is worth looking at.

Dan this really helps. I've been struggling to find beds on this one piece of public I hunt, it's a mountain setting. I found an area a month or so ago that was very very rubbed up and I was spending a lot of time scouting around this area thinking that the buck had been bedding somewhere in that area but didn't find a bed. This past weekend I went back to the area and wondered over to the crest of the mnt (about a 1/4 mile away) and started walking the military crest and found a pretty decent 5pt shed and a worn bed within minutes. The bed didn't have any rubs near it though. When I find beds like this on the military crest with no rubs, how do I know if this is a bed worth hunting come fall?

By hunting it... Throw a few sits at it. One early season, one rut-ish, one late season... The fact that you found a shed there and recently worn beds tells me late season should be good there, but I would still want to see if its used all season or at certain time periods.

[stash59]

Cool stuff. Joe I'm one of those guys that had limited success up north hunting along rub lines and scrapes. But now looking back it was all prerut stuff. October 25th- November 10th. When hunting the gun season (still little to no hunting pressure in the area), weekend before through weekend after thanksgiving. I saw very very few bucks along them. The bucks I saw then were just random places or following a doe. Seen while still hunting/walking an area. Some of the bucks had to have been in bedding areas.

[WV Bowhunter]

I'd never really hunted on a rub line but I found a few rubs near bedding that I'm going to give a go this fall. In my mind they are both slam dunk setups if I wait on the right conditions to hunt them.

[Nelson87]

Earlier in my bow hunting education I would get fooled into thinking those big clusters of rubs around food were "staging areas" but decent bucks weren't showing up till after dark. That by itself can be a sign you are looking in the wrong spot - if there are a ton of rubs facing all different directions, its probably night time activity just because bucks are clearly spending a ton of time in the area, probably not in the day...

Are you including rubs in the woods just off of a field edge?

The spot I have in mind is a 60 acre private piece I have sole access to. There's maybe an 8 acres of woods in one corner, but including the neighbors, there might be 40 acres of woods total. And several smaller patches within several hundered yards.

The woods on my side is a rectangle. The SW corner is the highest point around, dropping off moderately steep to a creek that is the N boundary. To the E, it drops off more gradually all the way through the woods. The woods is pretty thick.

Last year the landowner went around the W and S sides of the woods and knocked back limbs and even pushed out quite a few trees, just to keep it from creeping out more and to keep his equimpment from getting beat up on limbs. He laid the trees with the woods and pushed them right up to the edge along with all the brush, and after a years growth, there are only a few places the deer can get through. Of course, these all have trails coming to them.

Sunday I was out scouting and I found 2 places along the S side and 1 on the E side that I assumed might be staging areas since they were close to trails and I couldn't find any beds close by. But keep in mind this is farm country. Anyway, to get to the point, each spot had 5-8 rubs in a 20 yard circle. The rubs were on different sides of the trees, with some trees rubbed all the way around. Some were rubbed lightly while othere were mauled. One of these spots also had a scrape. They were all 3 on trails leading to the field.

I don't have bedding nailed down. I need to poke around near the top of the ridge. It's pretty thick. I did walk some of the trails back, but they mostly go over on the neighbors.

Curious what others think of spots like these? If I don't have bedding nailed down, are they worth hunting? Also, crop rotation. Last year was corn, beans this year. Will that change things? I think I'm the main one hunting the area. Two of the neighboring landowners live away from the area and have others farm their land. I can see two ladder stands on the neighbors, but I don't think they get hunted much at all. I never see anyone around on their properties and never heard a shot fired on them on opening day of gun season this year or last year.

[Nelson87]

I guess I could put up cameras in a couple of these spots to see what's going on.

[mheichelbech]

I think that sometimes a rubline can give you direction of routine travel. A small woodlot that I hunt has a rubline with new and historical rubs. That is exactly how the bucks go. The does tend to use a different set of trails about 60 yards east. The key here is flat ground and it's about their only choice of travel through cover.

[JoeRE]

Are you including rubs in the woods just off of a field edge?

Yep...I grew up reading magazine articles about how to find and hunt staging areas just like a lot of other guys. They always said something like find the food source then scout around for those areas of sign near them, usually lots of rubs and tracks. Those were supposed to be the staging areas. So that is what I did for years, find a bunch of rubs next to a oak flat or alfalfa field and get really excited, hunt those areas and I saw very little. A few young bucks, just about zero mature bucks.

Those writers that filled the pages of NAW, Peterson's bowhunting, field and stream, Outdoor life and all the other magazines I read growing up were hunting with big shot outfitters or on large hunting estates of their own. We were literally playing a different game. I am sure they were having success doing that. Unpressured bucks get close to food in daylight, for proof just turn on the outdoor channel. Pressured bucks don't. If they do, they are dead.

You mentioned you had a small property all to yourself. Having hunted a lot of smaller parcels too, my guess is the deer in the area still feel pressure, unless none of your neighbors hunt either. That food sign is important, it tells you what they were eating when and maybe what nearby bedding is most likely being used when that food source is hot. But have to get back tight to the bedding to kill the big boy.

I think that sometimes a rubline can give you direction of routine travel. A small woodlot that I hunt has a rubline with new and historical rubs. That is exactly how the bucks go. The does tend to use a different set of trails about 60 yards east. The key here is flat ground and it's about their only choice of travel through cover.

Exactly...and that is important information. Tracks and rubs are the two main signs I use to figure out buck travel routes. Not trails per se usually its just a hint of one. Scouting in the spring its mostly rubs since tracks from last fall are long gone.

Even if it were night time activity it points you in the right direction of where to look for bedding and finding him in daylight.

[DaveT1963]

I pay attention to all sign I find, rubs included. While it is true a lot of it is made a night.... even those night time rubs can help put a missing piece of the puzzle together. Just as you can pick up some knowledge by individual tracks - you can "sometimes" pick up clues about an individual buck. For instance, some might have really knurly bases and the tree will be tore up more. Some bucks prefer a certain type of tree, size of tree and frequently rub them at the same height from ground. Long tined bucks are notorious for breaking off spring saplings and often leave nicks on smaller limbs and saplings a few inches from the tree being rubbed.

While this may not help you with exactly where to hunt - by finding these clues and marking them on maps over a couple seasons patterns emerge and thus it might help you to pin point his preferred bedding (usually at the vortex of multiple travel routes with sign.

All sign is relevant - our job is to decipher it and let it tell us what part of the puzzle it is. Night time sign is absolutely valuable in some cases. I once had located a wheat field where a certain buck I was interested in showed up only during breeding season. I used boots on ground to find likely bedding - then it was a matter of waiting for night time rubs to show up to clue me in on when to hit those bedding areas. No I did not kill him - but I saw him at least once for two years before a rifle hunter did kill him.

When I find a good (big and/or high) rub I ask why he was in this exact spot (food, water, travel, bedding, sex, etc....) then I try to determine when I think it was made (morning/evening - pre rut or rut) then I try to answer which way was he heading, why and where was he coming from and why. This often leads me to aerial photos to then start trying to figure out where he might bed in relation to those questions. I get it wrong far more then right - but when you come up with the right answers it can lead you to where he might be hanging out most of the time during daylight hours. No buck is patternable every day - but a lot of them do have tendencies that they repeat. I killed a nice 140 several years back because he liked to use irrigation ditches to cross large alfalfa fields..... the ditch I finally killed him on had absolutely no sign along it except that it was between two doe bedding areas where he staged (and there were buck beds, rubs on the outskirts of both). I slipped an arrow through him right at day break as he was traveling from one doe bedding area to the next one during early Nov (I set up just as he entered the bedding area I was hunting - about 90+ yards from where the does bedded).... this was after three years of paying attention to when rubs started showing up at those bedding areas as I hunted them. The year I killed him I had a pretty good idea that the local bucks would be hitting those bedding areas in early Nov. I got lucky and was in the right tree at the right time when he came through - but it was the rubs that clued me in on when (Nov and morning) and where (entering the doe bedding area).

I think I do far better when I approach a buck like a forensic scientist then I do a hunter. They are they, they leave sign, and all sign can tell us something - if we have the knowledge and tools to analyze it.

[stash59]

I pay attention to all sign I find, rubs included. While it is true a lot of it is made a night.... even those night time rubs can help put a missing piece of the puzzle together. Just as you can pick up some knowledge by individual tracks - you can "sometimes" pick up clues about an individual buck. For instance, some might have really knurly bases and the tree will be tore up more. Some bucks prefer a certain type of tree, size of tree and frequently rub them at the same height from ground. Long tined bucks are notorious for breaking off spring saplings and often leave nicks on smaller limbs and saplings a few inches from the tree being rubbed.

While this may not help you with exactly where to hunt - by finding these clues and marking them on maps over a couple seasons patterns emerge and thus it might help you to pin point his preferred bedding (usually at the vortex of multiple travel routes with sign.

All sign is relevant - our job is to decipher it and let it tell us what part of the puzzle it is. Night time sign is absolutely valuable in some cases. I once had located a wheat field where a certain buck I was interested in showed up only during breeding season. I used boots on ground to find likely bedding - then it was a matter of waiting for night time rubs to show up to clue me in on when to hit those bedding areas. No I did not kill him - but I saw him at least once for two years before a rifle hunter did kill him.

When I find a good (big and/or high) rub I ask why he was in this exact spot (food, water, travel, bedding, sex, etc....) then I try to determine when I think it was made (morning/evening - pre rut or rut) then I try to answer which way was he heading, why and where was he coming from and why. This often leads me to aerial photos to then start trying to figure out where he might bed in relation to those questions. I get it wrong far more then right - but when you come up with the right answers it can lead you to where he might be hanging out most of the time during daylight hours. No buck is patternable every day - but a lot of them do have tendencies that they repeat. I killed a nice 140 several years back because he liked to use irrigation ditches to cross large alfalfa fields..... the ditch I finally killed him on had absolutely no sign along it except that it was between two doe bedding areas where he staged (and there were buck beds, rubs on the outskirts of both). I slipped an arrow through him right at day break as he was traveling from one doe bedding area to the next one during early Nov (I set up just as he entered the bedding area I was hunting - about 90+ yards from where the does bedded).... this was after three years of paying attention to when rubs started showing up at those bedding areas as I hunted them. The year I killed him I had a pretty good idea that the local bucks would be hitting those bedding areas in early Nov. I got lucky and was in the right tree at the right time when he came through - but it was the rubs that clued me in on when (Nov and morning) and where (entering the doe bedding area).

I think I do far better when I approach a buck like a forensic scientist then I do a hunter. They are they, they leave sign, and all sign can tell us something - if we have the knowledge and tools to analyze it.

[Nelson87]

Earlier in my bow hunting education I would get fooled into thinking those big clusters of rubs around food were "staging areas" but decent bucks weren't showing up till after dark. That by itself can be a sign you are looking in the wrong spot - if there are a ton of rubs facing all different directions, its probably night time activity just because bucks are clearly spending a ton of time in the area, probably not in the day...

Are you including rubs in the woods just off of a field edge?

The spot I have in mind is a 60 acre private piece I have sole access to. There's maybe an 8 acres of woods in one corner, but including the neighbors, there might be 40 acres of woods total. And several smaller patches within several hundered yards.

The woods on my side is a rectangle. The SW corner is the highest point around, dropping off moderately steep to a creek that is the N boundary. To the E, it drops off more gradually all the way through the woods. The woods is pretty thick.

Last year the landowner went around the W and S sides of the woods and knocked back limbs and even pushed out quite a few trees, just to keep it from creeping out more and to keep his equimpment from getting beat up on limbs. He laid the trees with the woods and pushed them right up to the edge along with all the brush, and after a years growth, there are only a few places the deer can get through. Of course, these all have trails coming to them.

Sunday I was out scouting and I found 2 places along the S side and 1 on the E side that I assumed might be staging areas since they were close to trails and I couldn't find any beds close by. But keep in mind this is farm country. Anyway, to get to the point, each spot had 5-8 rubs in a 20 yard circle. The rubs were on different sides of the trees, with some trees rubbed all the way around. Some were rubbed lightly while othere were mauled. One of these spots also had a scrape. They were all 3 on trails leading to the field.

I don't have bedding nailed down. I need to poke around near the top of the ridge. It's pretty thick. I did walk some of the trails back, but they mostly go over on the neighbors.

Curious what others think of spots like these? If I don't have bedding nailed down, are they worth hunting? Also, crop rotation. Last year was corn, beans this year. Will that change things? I think I'm the main one hunting the area. Two of the neighboring landowners live away from the area and have others farm their land. I can see two ladder stands on the neighbors, but I don't think they get hunted much at all. I never see anyone around on their properties and never heard a shot fired on them on opening day of gun season this year or last year.

Are you including rubs in the woods just off of a field edge?

Yep...I grew up reading magazine articles about how to find and hunt staging areas just like a lot of other guys. They always said something like find the food source then scout around for those areas of sign near them, usually lots of rubs and tracks. Those were supposed to be the staging areas. So that is what I did for years, find a bunch of rubs next to a oak flat or alfalfa field and get really excited, hunt those areas and I saw very little. A few young bucks, just about zero mature bucks.

Those writers that filled the pages of NAW, Peterson's bowhunting, field and stream, Outdoor life and all the other magazines I read growing up were hunting with big shot outfitters or on large hunting estates of their own. We were literally playing a different game. I am sure they were having success doing that. Unpressured bucks get close to food in daylight, for proof just turn on the outdoor channel. Pressured bucks don't. If they do, they are dead.

You mentioned you had a small property all to yourself. Having hunted a lot of smaller parcels too, my guess is the deer in the area still feel pressure, unless none of your neighbors hunt either. That food sign is important, it tells you what they were eating when and maybe what nearby bedding is most likely being used when that food source is hot. But have to get back tight to the bedding to kill the big boy.

>>>>>UPDATE<<<<<

I finally got a chance to get back to this property and look for bedding. This postseason is my first stab at finding beds, so of course I'm pretty green. First i circled the hill I described in my earlier post in the southwest corner of the woods and found a couple faint beds I could verify with a few hair and a few more spots that looked like beds that I couldn't verify. No rubs near them. I only had a short time to be out, so I decided to walk over and take a look around where I had found some rubs and a scrape along the east side of the woods. I followed a deer trail down toward the creek and then another going the direction I wanted to go and it led me right to the scrape. I bent over to check for tracks and that's when I noticed the"scrape" had hair in it.

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That kinda confused me, until there was a discusion recently on this very subject. I had posted these pics there as well.viewtopic.php?f=3&t=39674

It hadn't dawned on me that this could be a bedding area, but on my way to check out this rub 20 yards away

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I stepped right into this bed before I noticed what it was

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This is only the third time I've found beds, so it didn't dawn on me how good this spot really was until I started looking around. It's on the tip of a small point, made by a small ditch running on an angle into the creek. There's only a few feet of elevation, and it's only 35 yards from the field edge, BUT, in this bed facing north he can watch the fairly open creek bottom and small field and watch cars on the state hwy while a south or southwest wind covers his back.

A few feet away I found a faint bed with hair in it facing south
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And just a couple yards away a more worn bed, also facing south. He can't see as far facing this direction, but still a ways. Old and newer rub.
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Now I literally spent 15 or 20 min in this spot (and ended up getting home late) and now I'm trying to figure this out.

This is buck bedding, right? But I didn't notice any big tracks or much poop right around the beds. What I did see was lots of smaller tracks and poop on the trails leading to the point. But the beds seem used recently so maybe bucks aren't using it right now but does are?

Several trails from my side kinda come together on this point and one runs out to the field to the east while another one or two go north on the neighbors. I can use the creek to access- it's maybe 80-100 yards from the beds. But even if I can determine when these beds are being used, there are crop fields in every direction so figuring out which way they'll go will be a challenge.

I'm not trying to disagree with what JoeRE said about rubs near fields. Please don't take me that way. I didn't know these beds were there when I posted before, so I thought I'd share what I found. I can see why Joe said what he did because guess where one of the trails coming off of that point leads? To one of the clusters of rubs I had mentioned along the south edge of the woods and on into the field. And looking at both these spots it's obvious there's a difference. Like I stated in my earlier post, I don't think this area gets much pressure from neighbors and last fall I never once set foot in it partly because I just never could decide how to hunt it and partly because I started hunting some public ground. Maybe like Dan says, I need to throw a stand at it. I'm just trying to figure out how to do it without burning the spot. I want to go back and take a better look around but I want to wait untill I have enough time to really go over the whole area.

Again, I'm not trying to contradict what JoeRE said. Please don't take me that way.

[JoeRE]

Oh I don't take it that way no worries. Advice across the internet from hundreds or a thousand miles away should be treated suspiciously anyway in my opinion

Sounds to me like you got some more pieces of the puzzle. Bedding can be close to fields or a long ways from them, that's all situational. Around here 1/4 mile from the nearest field is about as far as you can get....but I do tend to see bucks bed "behind" does. Not sure that they do it consciously or just know to seek a spot that is safer than where does bed. In the rut they will get tighter to doe bedding, even using the same bedding sometimes.

With the rubs, definitely is seeing some use by bucks. Whether year round, or just during the rut, that is the question. What I would do is keep an eye from a distance, check trails leading up to the season for big tracks heading that direction or maybe a trail camera at a safe distance. Or just give it a hunt!

[Nelson87]

Oh I don't take it that way no worries. Advice across the internet from hundreds or a thousand miles away should be treated suspiciously anyway in my opinion

Sounds to me like you got some more pieces of the puzzle. Bedding can be close to fields or a long ways from them, that's all situational. Around here 1/4 mile from the nearest field is about as far as you can get....but I do tend to see bucks bed "behind" does. Not sure that they do it consciously or just know to seek a spot that is safer than where does bed. In the rut they will get tighter to doe bedding, even using the same bedding sometimes.

With the rubs, definitely is seeing some use by bucks. Whether year round, or just during the rut, that is the question. What I would do is keep an eye from a distance, check trails leading up to the season for big tracks heading that direction or maybe a trail camera at a safe distance. Or just give it a hunt!

The first paragragh of your post literally made me lol! After reading through your journel, I don't take what you have to say lightly.

I have 3 cameras, and am going to try changing how I've using them a bit. Again, thanks largely to your journel.

[flinginairos]

Where we did the workshop on Saturday is a very large area... We straight lined a pathe from one side of the public to the other, that was over 3.5 miles one way, and the area was about that wide. However, almost all of the mature buck bedding is down in the cattails and dogwood. Its in the spots where there is water surrounding the beds on this property... Try and find rubs there... You will, and even a couple rublines along the transition a hundred yards or so from bedding. But its nothing like the giant rublines, and perennial rubbed trees that you find over a mile from the bedding where there are crop fields and oak trees on the public land. The sides of the fields are littered with big rubs and rublines. Almost as many rubs as trees stands... But you very, very, rarely see a mature buck, or any buck for that matter, that far away from the bedding... Not even in rut. I have been hunting there for over 2 decades and have killed probably close to a dozen good bucks in that stretch of public. Seen many more. I can only recall a couple that were not bedding in the cattails over a mile from the rubs and crops... Those rubs are useless to me except that they attract attention and keep it away from where the bucks really are... Everytime I see a big buck shining in those crops, or catch a trail cam pic, I end up seeing or killing it down in the bedding area. Over a mile away...

Certainly every situation is different, but, I would try to determine where the bucks bed and hang out in daylight prior to deciding if a rub is worth looking at.

I've seen the same thing in the area I hunt. The nice flat ridge tops will be destroyed with nice rubs and that's where everyone hunts. All that sign is made after dark when they are hitting the acorns but I sure do appreciate them rubbing all those trees to catch every other hunters attention! The spots I end up hunting might only have one or two rubs but they are close to bedding. One of my best spots won't have any rubs but it produces bucks year after year.

[Waymore]

This is a very informative thread!

[Buckbreath]

I have seen many times that rubs are unique to a deer. Whether it be rub height or tree diameter, tree species or specific rub marks in the tree. To me this is useful info. I also was in mature buck bed yesterday and was able to follow a faint rub line all the way to some hunters bait pile. These rubs were spread out far enough where I couldn't see more than one at a time. It would have been tough backtracking from the bait to the bed.